We keep hearing variations from the Bush occupation force in Iraq that they want the USA to be seen not as occupiers, but as liberators.
Wow -- so the American military engages in torture behavior equal to, if not worse than, anything Saddam Hussein engaged in, against Iraqi prisoners.
What I fear now is the USA will never be able to come back from this latest chapter. Now, not only the Iraqis, but the entire Arab world sees America was criminal thugs and torturers who get off on hurting less powerful Arabs.
Jeez, what a bunch of morons the U.S. military is in Iraq. I heard this weekend the blame game has begun.
The female General who the military canned is pointing her blood drenched finger at the CIA for the torture of Iraqi prisoners.
The CIA is pointing their fingers at the US military.
The Democrats are blaming Bush, as are the Iraqi citizens.
And Bush is blaming who else? Former President Bill Clinton!
infowarrior
infowarrior, yep, don't forget Bill Clinton invented the old cigar torture technique. I wonder why it took the Republications so long to remember that sad day in our history?
BBB
It's no wonder this administration tried to keep this war from being covered by the media; I hope this one sinks this president and his administration for good.
could the photos be fake?
This is LONDON
03/05/04 - News and city section
Abuse photos 'not taken in Iraq'
A former commander of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment has dismissed the Iraq abuse photographs as having "too many inconsistencies".
Colonel David Black argued that the images, apparantly showing soldiers from his old regiment beating and urinating on an Iraqi captive, published in the Daily Mirror, were probably not even taken in Iraq.
He told BBC1's Breakfast that the vehicle shown was never sent to the war zone and the uniforms were not the same as those worn by the regiment.
Col Black said: "The evidence we have seen so far looking at the photographs, there are too many inconsistencies."
The regiment had been left angry and dismayed by the allegations, he added. "What they're feeling at the moment is dismay that this has occurred, disgusted at the allegations that have been made and not a little bit angry that their good name has been dragged through the mud."
He said they had had a highly successful tour of Basra, adding: "It's been a terrible shock to them." Col Black maintained the soldiers would have been wearing helmets or a beret, not floppy hats as in the photos, would have had a regiment identification flash and a brigade flash on their sleeves and the rifle should have had a sling and an attached radio button.
He added the main factor was that the vehicle shown was not one deployed to Basra with his unit. "In fact, the Bedford MK ... which appears in the photographs, as I gather, was not deployed by the Army to Iraq at all because of difficulties with local fuel. That vehicle can't operate with fuel that was available in Iraq.
"So obviously the photograph was probably not even taken in Iraq."
The Daily Mirror later renewed its insistence that the pictures were genuine. In a statement read out on BBC Radio 4's The World At One, the paper said: "We note the comments made by the Queen's Lancashire Regiment and understand why they are very anxious to distance themselves from this story.
"The fact remains that our sources are serving members of the regiment and are standing by their account of what happened and the veracity of the photographs. Although we appreciate the Queen's Lancashire Regiment has concerns, as they put it, about the Daily Mirror, we also have very serious concerns about the behaviour of some of their troops in Iraq."
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Find this story at
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/PA_NEWDEFENCEIraqmo13iraqphotoc?version=1
©2004 Associated New Media
Command Errors Aided Iraq Abuse, Army Has Found
5/3/2004 - New York Times
PRISONERS
Command Errors Aided Iraq Abuse, Army Has Found
By JAMES RISEN
An internal Army investigation has found a virtual collapse of the command structure in a prison outside Baghdad where American enlisted personnel are accused of committing acts of abuse and humiliation against Iraqi detainees.
A report on the investigation said midlevel military intelligence officers were allowed to skirt the normal chain of command to issue questionable orders to enlisted personnel from the reserve military police unit handling guard duty there.
The Army has already begun one investigation into the abuse allegations. Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, the incoming deputy commander of Army intelligence, is examining the interrogation practices of military intelligence officers at all American-run prisons in Iraq and not just the Abu Ghraib prison.
A second review was ordered Saturday by Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly, head of the Army Reserve, to assess the training of all reservists, especially military police and intelligence officers, the soldiers most likely to handle prisoners. Six members of an Army Reserve military police unit assigned to Abu Ghraib face charges of assault, cruelty, indecent acts and maltreatment of detainees.
Gary Myers, a lawyer for Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick II, one of the enlisted men charged in the case, requested over the weekend that the Army open a court of inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, a move that would expand the investigation beyond the six enlisted personnel to look at the broader command failures.
The widening prison-abuse scandal in Iraq, which has stirred anger in the Arab world just as the Marines have tried to defuse a bloody confrontation in Falluja, holds the potential to damage efforts by American officials to meet a June 30 deadline to transfer limited self-rule to the Iraqi people. It appeared to have caught senior Pentagon officials and some top officers off guard on Sunday, despite President Bush's condemnation of the abuses on Friday.
Appearing on three Sunday talk shows, Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, gave conflicting answers when asked if the problems at Abu Ghraib were systemic throughout detention centers in Iraq.
At first, General Myers insisted that the instances of mistreatment were not widespread and were the actions of "just a handful" of soldiers who had unfairly tainted all American forces in Iraq. But when pressed, he acknowledged that he had not yet read a classified, 53-page Army report completed in February by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, first reported in the May 10 issue of The New Yorker, that chronicled the worst of the abuses at Abu Ghraib. General Myers left open the possibility the abuses could be broader, saying, "We don't know that yet."
A spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said that the secretary had not been briefed on General Taguba's report either, but had been kept abreast of the investigative process.
General Myers also acknowledged that he had asked the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" to delay broadcasting photographs of the abuses taken by guards inside the prison to avoid worsening tensions in Iraq at a time when attacks against American forces are on the rise and one soldier is being held hostage by insurgents. "I thought it would be particularly inflammatory at that time," General Myers said on the ABC News program "This Week."
The Taguba report, as well as other documents seen Sunday by The New York Times, also reveal a much broader pattern of command failures than initially acknowledged by the Pentagon and the Bush administration in responding to outrage over the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison.
The report on General Taguba's investigation identified two military intelligence officers and two civilian contractors for the Army as key figures in the abuse cases at Abu Ghraib. In his internal report on his findings in the investigation, General Taguba said he suspected that the four were "either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib and strongly recommended disciplinary action."
The Taguba report found that they were never properly trained or supervised. It found that in effect, the military police were told to soften up the prisoners so they would talk more freely in interrogations conducted by intelligence officials.
The Taguba report states that "military intelligence interrogators and other U.S. Government Agency interrogators actively requested that M.P. guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses." It noted that one civilian interrogator, a contractor from a company called CACI International Inc., based in Arlington, Va., and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, "clearly knew his instructions" to the military police equated to physical abuse.
The Taguba report's sharpest criticism was for officers in charge of the military police and military intelligence units in the prison.
"There is abundant evidence in the statements of numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th M.P. Brigade were not proficient" in basic skills needed to operate the prison, the report found.
A crucial problem, the report found, was the bad relationship between the commanders of the military police unit and the military intelligence officers. The report found that there "was clear friction and lack of effective communication" between Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who was in charge of the accused soldiers, and military intelligence officials operating in the prison.
The report said the "ambiguous command relationship" in the prison was made worse by orders that seemed to give military intelligence officials broad authority.
The orders from occupation commanders in Iraq effectively made a military intelligence officer, rather than a military police officer, responsible for the military police units, the report said. This arrangement was not supported by General Karpinski, the report added, and "is not doctrinally sound."
But while the Taguba report criticized military intelligence's role in the abuse, it did not spare General Karpinski. It recommended that she be relieved of command and reprimanded for command failures related to the abuse. General Karpinski said Saturday that she was sickened by the photos of the abuse.
The report identifies Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th military intelligence brigade, Lt. Col. Steven L. Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center and Liaison Officer to the 205th Military intelligence Brigade, Steven Stephanowicz, an Army contract employee from CACI, and John Israel, a contractor and civilian interpreter with CACI, as the people suspected of being "either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib."
The report concluded that Mr. Stephanowicz made a false statement to the investigation team regarding the "locations of his interrogations, the activities during his interrogations, and his knowledge of abuses." It recommended that he be dismissed.
Mr. Israel, the report found, "denied ever having seen interrogation processes in violation" of Army standards, "which is contrary to several witness statements." Colonel Pappas was recommended for a reprimand for, among other things, failing to supervise his soldiers properly, and failing to ensure that soldiers under his direct command knew, understood and followed the Geneva Conventions for the treatment of prisoners of war.
Efforts to reach Colonel Pappas by e-mail yesterday were unsuccessful, as were efforts to find a telephone number or e-mail address for Colonel Jordan. Officials at CACI did not respond to telephone and e-mail messages yesterday requesting comment. In the New Yorker article, a spokeswoman said the company had received "no formal communication" from the Army about the case.
Some photographs of abuse at Abu Ghraib have been broadcast and published in recent days, since "60 Minutes II" first broadcast them on Wednesday. One photo shows a naked Iraqi man kneeling in front of another naked Iraqi man, who is standing over him with a bag over his head, while another shows a female American soldier pointing as an Iraqi man with a bag over his head is masturbating.
Another photo shows an American soldier sitting on top of a naked Iraqi man, who is straining to look up, and still more photos show naked Iraqi men in a human pyramid.
The photographs, some included in evidence in the Army's investigation, support the conclusions of the Taguba report, which found that between October and December 2003 "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees" by members of the 800th Military Police Brigade. "This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force in Tier 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison."
In addition, the report said, "there were also abuses committed by members of the 325th Military Intelligence Battalion, 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center."
Documents from an April 2 military court hearing in Iraq for Sergeant Frederick provide new details about the abuse. The documents show that Specialist Matthew Carl Wisdom, of the 372nd Military Police Company at Abu Ghraib, appeared in the hearing and described some of the acts of abuse he saw.
"I went down to Tier 1 (the cellblock where much of the abuse is said to have occurred) and when I looked down the corridor, I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open," he is quoted as saying. "I thought I should just get out of there. I didn't think it was right, as it seemed like the wrong thing to do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick walking towards me, and he said, `Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.' "
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Eric Schmitt and Thom Shanker contributed reporting for this article.
A crucial problem, the report found, was the bad relationship between the commanders of the military police unit and the military intelligence officers. The report found that there "was clear friction and lack of effective communication" between Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who was in charge of the accused soldiers, and military intelligence officials operating in the prison.
I wonder how many times their going to use the same excuse.
May 1, 2004 -- THE United States just experienced its first true disaster in Iraq. As news of the disgraceful mistreatment of prisoners by American soldiers sweeps the world, our enemies celebrate a major propaganda gift. Even our friends cannot defend the indefensible.
..
A time-tested military saying runs,
"One aw-s#8@ cancels a hundred attaboys." This particular debacle canceled thousands of hard-won successes, great and small.
Thanks to the power of the globalized media and the internet, those images of prisoner abuse will be immortalized, their effects inflated far beyond the truth - which was bad enough. Anyone in the Arab world who sought "evidence" that Americans are nothing more than imperialist bullies just got it.
Those Europeans for whom anti-Americanism is a cult, if not an outright religion, are already having a grand time. Quibbling that no prisoners were killed or maimed won't help. For those who wish to believe ill of America, the abuse photographs can be conflated with Europe's own far-greater crimes.
No one died in those brutal antics in the Abu Gharaib prison. But the global left will treat these events as if they were the Holocaust and the Gulag combined.
It's just possible that no soldiers in U.S. history have done more damage to our country's cause than the Gang of Six from the 800th Military Police Brigade. But it's not just about the soldiers directly involved. These crimes demonstrate an utter failure of the chain of command. All the way to the top.
Link to rest of article.
McG's post, "These crimes demonstrate an utter failure of the chain of command. All the way to the top." How much you wanna bet this administration blames everybody else but themselves?
McGentrix wrote:No one died in those brutal antics in the Abu Gharaib prison. But the global left will treat these events as if they were the Holocaust and the Gulag combined.
Since the bold was done by you, McG, it's okay, because no one died?
However, Newsweek reports that such charges of abuse of prisoners are not confined to Iraq.:
A recent report by Human Rights Watch described similar treatment of prisoners at Baghram and other US-run detention centers in Afghanistan. The deaths of at least two prisoners in American custody in Afghanistan were officially declared homicides by US military doctors who performed autopsies on the victims. Newsweek, 10 May issue
This president and administration wanna-bees will say "we'll get to the bottom of this,' and they really mean it. They're going after all the people below them rather than looking at themselve.
Walter Hinteler wrote:McGentrix wrote:No one died in those brutal antics in the Abu Gharaib prison. But the global left will treat these events as if they were the Holocaust and the Gulag combined.
Since the bold was done by you, McG, it's okay, because no one died?
Why are so anti-American Walt?
McG, Walter is not anti-American. He's anti-Bush like some in this country and the majority around the world. Do you understand what Bush has done to our Arab friends? Moderate Arab countries used to say they were our friends until Bush became president. Bush was also responsible for doing the impossible; he has aligned two warring factions in Iraq to become allies to fight the US. As a matter of fact, I count Walter as one of my friends.
McGentrix wrote:
Why are so anti-American Walt?
From where. especially quoting me with the above, did you get the idea, I am anti-American???
revel wrote:Are you trying to say with that ad that the Arabs hated us before the abuse YES and that they hate us now YES and so therefore the abuse should be just dismissed NO or what?
McGentrix is right - these idiots cancelled out a lot of attaboys with their actions. Whoever photoshopped Lance Corporal Budreaux's cardboard sign did too.
BBB has a good question though. Is torture ever justified? Suppose you know that a person has information that will save the lives of a million people. I think anyone would agree that torture is justified in that case. Now suppose it would save one person. Is it still justified? Probably still yes. What if you have a reasonable suspicion that one of six people has information that might lead to the release of ten hostages? I think it would be hard to justify torture in that case. My point is that we need to have more information before we can automatically pass judgment.
It's like the old joke:
Man: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?
Woman: Of course I would!
Man: How about twenty dollars?
Woman: No way! What do you think I am, a prostitute?
Man: We've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price.
Oh. I must have read more into his statement than what he said or meant. Sometimes people will do that.
Well, even if you, Tarantulas, think, torture might be justified -- it's still against the US law (besides, it's against international and other nationals laws, conventioned etc).
Wasn't Iraq invaded to stop the torture by Saddam as well?
