18
   

Cruel or the Circle of Life?

 
 
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Feb, 2014 08:53 am
@maxdancona,
Ha!

My favourite menu was in Kephalonia.

Fish Soup - €3
Fish Soup with Fish - €4
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 12 Feb, 2014 11:27 am
@farmerman,
Another Farmer shoots his mouth off post. Roughly (quick web search) 100 million animals are killed each year by hunters. Do they rush their butcher out into the bush help them butcher the game?

Farmer: The Muslims, for some reason, do want their male children to watch the entire process)

While millions of American, Canadian, ... kids wear full blinders when taken out hunting by their elders. Do you think farmer has a racist streak in him?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:03 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

All the world is not the US. Americans themselves are quick to point that out whenever foreigners condemn American conduct based on their own, foreign rules. So unless you have a specific reason to believe that the zoo put public health at risk, your whole charge is that Danes act by Danish rather than American rules. Get over it.
EU and UK are still showing pockets of KJD from poor culling , crappy slaughter, and some paleo health rules.

When we had an outbreak of "Mad Cow" and KJD several years ago it was found out that the cows and bullocks were from some other nation that were shipped through Canada and the "3rd nation" shippers gave false statements on quarantine reports at the Canadian border.


I don't have to "get over anything" Just be thankful you live in a nation that has some better Ag rules.

Quote:
Is this logical enough for you?
Not in the least. Lets face it, you are merely trying to justify a less than humans act by even making a euthanasia a spectacle. Its a FUCKIN ZOO not a house of horrors.
What purpose does showing a euthanasia and slaughter butchering even have? (ANYWAY, as it turned out the ZOODID NOT DO THIS , so for you "being ok with it" was not an option. Apparently even the zoo wasn't that heartless.

As it turned out, giraffe was a very popular meat among the Romans,( apparently the first "Spotted Dick" was with giraffe)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:06 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

Well, it doesn't. What's wrong with a reality check from time to time?

Try to visit an abbatoir in the US. If you don't have a need (inspection, Education in a vet school, training for health departments and restaurant stafers) you wont be welcome inside. Go see a"Twilight" or a snuff movie to get it out of your system Thomas.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Feb, 2014 02:12 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

I am curious. What do lions living in US zoos eat?
usually horsemeat which comes from certified veterinary butchers and . Im not saying that zoo animal are NOT served up, but most often they are not if the animals had showed any condition or disease.

Large Zoos like Brooklyn, Philly, Nat Zoo etc all have vets and large facilities to store a nd process cuts, (Which are then in most cases irradiated by EM to kill pathogens. The meat is usually infused with vitamins and other health care products unique to the species. In Philly they raiae rats and guinea pigs for the snakes and carp and koi for pinnipeds.

Ill bet that giraffe, if it really were planned to be used for food, had a bank of med tests performed before it was slaughtered
saab
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 01:18 am
@farmerman,
Quote:


There are several veterinaries at the Copenhagen Zoo and others working as scientists.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 02:16 am
@saab,
I am glad you've jumped on as the original story was incorrect about tgis entire episode.
My concern is about inhumane slaughter of stock used for food (As you can see by my name, I run a stock farm where we raise sheep and a few cattle . I can say , from my own experience, after caring for, and keeping any animals healthy (even if Im raising them for market).
My responsibility to the animals and the customers is to make sure the animals life wasn't just callously disposed or taken in inhumane and unclean means (as the original story would imply with "Slaughtering the animal in front of zoo patrons").
You've probably been the principal one with more accurate information as this story progressed on our boards.

We started "choosing up sides" based on erroneous info and Im glad that it wasn't true.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 05:42 am
@farmerman,
The Zoo in Copenhagen has a big program teaching from kindergarten kids up to college age and also teaching future teachers.
Basic idea is to get children to touch animals, also to watch and describe their behavior.
It should - hopefully - help children to become interested in nature. (nature is not always a Disney world)
Also taking part in this makes it possible to go much further than it is possible in a school.
The animals are not slaughtred in front of people but dissected. ( in school we did it with frogs) There are regularly dessection of animals.
I am very much for taking good care of your animals but remain factual and do not get sentimental.
There is not use to get all upset about a giraffe while you watch TV and feed your dog with all kinds of goodies which make it obece. That is much more cruelty to animals.
http://www.k103.se/files/imagecache/display/files/users/snartardetmandagigen/blog/images/20111027/fat_dog-1613.JPG
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 06:36 am
@saab,
overfeeding animals is illogical if you care for a pet.
As for me being "sentimental", good stewardship in livestock rearing is good business, it creates an entire system for customesr confidence and buyer choice.

"Free range " is merely an attempt by big growers to jump aboard what is a market place choice. People pay a premium for well cared for and humanely handled stock. (It also results in having musculature not full of lactic acid from rough handling)

I highly doubt that this giraffe was a candidate for "Dissection" or some learning program. IT WAS cut up for meat , that IS a fact.

Putting n animal down in front of other animals and /or patrons, is just stupid in that it would result in mostly poor publicity.
"Controlled dissections" for training of zookeepers , scientists , and vets should be carried out in a hygienic atmosphere where tissues can be sampled and stained for microscopy . Im certain now, that that's what they did with the aforementioned giraffe.

After all,a giraffe is a bit larger than a foetal pig or a monkey. If it were going to be used for teaching purposes, Im sure it would have been euthanized by means other than shooting. After all , it was used for meat and Im sure the zookeepers didn't want to have any residuals in the meat.

Quote:

The Zoo in Copenhagen has a big program teaching from kindergarten kids up to college age and also teaching future teachers.
Basic idea is to get children to touch animals, also to watch and describe their behavior.
The science of euthenics at the Copenhagen zoo didn't, Im almost certain , include a public display of the proper style of whacking animals in front of young children .That's not "Disney- esque" that's just good business and good stewardship.



Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:09 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Try to visit an abbatoir in the US. If you don't have a need (inspection, Education in a vet school, training for health departments and restaurant stafers) you wont be welcome inside.

If that is so, I disapprove of it, considering that slaughterhouses want me to trust their products enough to ingest them in my own body. Orange planters and wheat farmers have no problem showing me how their food is made. I expect no less transparency from the people who make my meat.

farmerman wrote:
Go see a"Twilight" or a snuff movie to get it out of your system Thomas.

You continue to insinuate that people are creepy if they approve of things like the Copenhagen culling. But autopsies are genuinely interesting, not just for anatomists but for the general public, too. (Incidentally, the BBC features a giraffe autopsy in its series Inside Nature's Giants. Go look at it and tell me with a straight face that it isn't worth watching! ) Cullings and animal feedings, while less interesting, are facts of life. There is nothing wrong with them. And since there is nothing wrong with them, why would there be something wrong with showing them?
Thomas
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:50 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
As for me being "sentimental",

I cannot speak for Saab, but to me your viewpoint isn't so much sentimental as it is hypocritical. You are trying to have it both ways by insisting that killing, dissecting, and butchering animals are good things to do but bad things to see.

And it's not just about this thread, it's a pattern with you and this subject that I've been observing for quite a few years. Whenever A2K people start threads about vegetarianism, you are the first to go in there and ridicule them for it. (I'm too lazy to chase the links right now, but I've seen you do it in at least one of my threads and at least two of Failure's Art's threads.) And yet you get all upset when people show how a living animal turns into meat? Come on!

Since you are the one going on about positions being logical, I suggest you pick a side: If watching a healthy animal get killed for food is too upsetting to show, then maybe it's too upsetting to do. If so, maybe you should stop farming hogs, cows, or whatever it is you raise for meat. And you certainly should stop ridiculing people whenever they show an interest in vegetarianism. On the other hand, if you decide that killing animals for meat (or curiosity) is okay, why don't you own it? Why don't you stop being squeamish about showing what you do? At the very least, I suggest you stop insinuating that people are creeps when they disagree with you about the showing.

Either way is fine with me. But you can't have it both ways.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:51 am
@Thomas,
Propaganda and the USA - nobody does it better and no one helps more than Farmerman.

I hope you don't ignore this, Saab, Thomas, ... .
-------------------------

Mad Cow Disease
What the Government Isn't Telling You!

Lorraine Day, M.D.

...


What is the evidence for a cover-up in Mad Cow Disease?

1. As of Jan 6, 2001, the Centers for Disease Control, a government Public Health organization, published on their web site: "BSE has not been shown to exist in the United States." "According to the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Services of the United States Dapartment of Agriculture, BSE has NOT been detected in the United States, despite active surveillance efforts for several years." However, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) DOES NOT actively monitor the disease!

The REAL truth is: "A year before BSE was even reported in Britain in 1985, Richard Marsh, Chairman of the Department of Veterinary Science at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, was alerting dairy practitioners of the possibility that a "previously unrecognized scrapie-like disease in cattle" existed in the United States. The clue came in 1981 when "Mad Mink Disease" wiped out a population of minks in Wisconsin who hadn't eaten any sheep at all. The meat portion of their diet consisted almost exclusively of dairy cattle called "Downers," an industry term describing cows which collapse for unknown reasons and are too sick to stand up.

BUT - the beef industry claims that "Downer Cows" DO NOT have Mad Cow Disease! YET - when these Downer Cows were ground up and fed to mink - the mink DEVELOPED "Mad Mink Disease!"

In June 1992, a USDA consultant group decided that changes in the research program to accommodate the possibiity that BSE was already present in the U.S. were, "not appropriate at this time." The panel that made this decision included representatives of the National Milk Producers Federation, the National Renderers Association, the American Sheep Industry Association and the National Cattlemen's Association.

(By the way, Beef is the largest revenue source for American agriculture nationwide. It is a $150 billion dollar industry. Since the FDA protects the pharmaceutical industry, the very industry that it's supposed to police, why wouldn't the USDA (U.S. Dept of Agriculture) protect the Beef and Sheep Industry, even though the USDA is supposed to CONTROL it?)

According to the USDA, "virtually all U.S. feed manufacturers use meat and bone meal in their feeds" and most U.S. cattle are fed such rendered animal tissues. In 1989 alone the U.S. rendered two million tons of cattle for use primarily in animal feed and pet food. There has been a substantial increase in the use of animal protein in commercial dairy feed since 1987.

Dr. Gibbs, who recently chaired a World Health Organization investigation into the disease says "Do I believe BSE is here in the U.S., of course I do," Gibbs made this admission at a University of Wisconsin symposium.

With more than two decades of prion research behind him, Dr. Stanely Prusiner, the scientist who coined the term "prion" and received the Nobel Prize for his work, agrees that Mad Cow Disease MUST be present in the U.S."

In late 1978, Dr. Masuo Doi, a veterinarian with the Food Safety and Quality Service, studied a disorder in some young hogs that had arrived at a Packing Plant in Albany, N.Y. from several Midwestern states. The USDA's pathologist reported that the damage in the pig's brain was similar to the damage observed in the brains of sheep afflicted with scrapie, essentially the same disease as Mad Cow Disease (BSE) in cows.

Finally, the FDA drafted a rule that would ban the fortifying of animal feeds with "any Mammalian tissue." However, the FDA has played a taxonomical shell game by ARBITRARILY REMOVING PIGS FROM THE CLASS OF "MAMMALIA." They declared that a pig is NOT a mammal!

A single teaspoon of ingested high infectivity meat and bone meal is thought to be enough to cause BSE in a cow.

"One hundred thousand cows per year in the United States are fine at night, but dead in the morning. The majority of those cows are rounded up, ground up, fed back to other cows. If only one of them has Mad Cow disease, it has the potential to infect thousands." says Howard Lyman, Cattle Rancher for 40 years.

Mad Cow Risks were First Reported in the United States in 1976!!

"Health experts...knew of the potential dangers of contaminated human growth hormone years before the first Creutzfeldt-Jakob death occurred and experimental programs halted, British court documents reveal. Correspondence dating from the mid- '70s presented to a British judicial inquiry reveal a paper trail betwen the United States National Institutes of Health and the British Government indicating the infectiousness was foreseen," the Los Angeles Times reports.

"Moreover, a safer method for purifying human growth hormone drugs had long been available, but scientists involved in the experiments had ignored it in favor of a cheaper, less labor-intensive option."

In 1989 alone almost 800 million pounds of processed animals were fed to beef and dairy cattle in the U.S.. The USDA has conceded that "the potential risk of amplification of the BSE agent is much greater in the United States" than in Britain.

In 1995 five million tons of processed slaughterhouse leftovers were sold for animal feed in the United States.

Rendering is a $2.4 billion-a-year industry. "There is simply no such thing in America as an animal too ravaged by disease, too cancerous, or too putrid to be welcomed by the embracing arms of the renderer. In addition to diseased farm animals, the city of Los Angeles sends some two hundred tons of euthanized cats and dogs to a rendering plant every month. Added to the blend are the euthanized catch of animal control agencies and roadkill " according to Howard Lyman, a cattle rancher for 40 years. This is the food fed to the animals that YOU EAT!

In the U.S. the rendering industry promised to stop feeding sheep brains to cows years ago; the FDA confirmed that this ban failed.

Unfortunately just about everybody lies. "British government officials misled the public for years over the dangers of British beef and the risk of "mad cow" (BSE) disease spreading to humans," according to Reuters wire service.

"UK Physicians Told Not to Tell Hemophilia Patients of Possible CJD Blood Concerns."

"Mad Cow - BSE- CJD Now Likely to Be a Global Infection" according to New Scientist journal.

BSE has infected a dozen species of animals which presumably ate infected tissue.

http://www.drday.com/madcow.htm
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 01:22 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

I cannot speak for Saab, but to me your viewpoint isn't so much sentimental as it is hypocritical. You are trying to have it both ways by insisting that killing, dissecting, and butchering animals are good things to do but bad things to see.
Then, respectfully, you are not paying attention. Animals ARE slaughtered for meat. I have no position that its either bad or good. It is a fact. (You have the bigger problem because of your afore stated statement about not wanting to cause pain to animals so you are slowly evolving into a veggieterian).
I do think that "watching" has a purpose if its for teaching (NONE OF THAT WAS STATED ABOVE). According to the OP it was done"infront" of zoo patrons (AS IT TURNED OUT THAT WAS FALSE)
So I am being quite consistent . Im part of an industry that raises a meat product and is aware of a respect fpr life and a concern for health and safety. How bout you?

Quote:
Since you are the one going on about positions being logical, I suggest you pick a side: If watching a healthy animal get killed for food is too upsetting to show, then maybe it's too upsetting to do. If so, maybe you should stop farming hogs, cows, or whatever it is you raise for meat.
Ive been doing this for thirty mand a few years sp I don't need any lectures from someone who doesn't understand what the industry is even about.
Your above statement is erratic and makes less sense than your "Im OK EITHER WAY"

Quote:
And you certainly should stop ridiculing people whenever they show an interest in vegetarianism.
Where did I do that? I don't give a shot whether you eat meat, beans or twigs. Just eat healthy

Quote:
Why don't you stop being squeamish about showing what you do? At the very least, I suggest you stop insinuating that people are creeps when they disagree with you about the showing
Its no ones business how we run our business. Its been successful and we like the life. When animals are slaughtered for meat (I SHALL TRY TO GO SLOWLY AGAIN).

1.The customers are not allowed to be part of the slaughter of the animal that is marketed by me. I don't do "club" sales to customers anynmore because much of the slaughtering done by customers is cruel handling of the animals and they don't die quickly. I answer to the State Dept Health and Dept Agriculture. I carry food handlers insurance and allowing anyone other than me , the licensed butcher (or, in the case of Halal or Kosher (the Imam or the Rabbi) , to be part of the butchering is not allowed PERIOD. If I were to be handling pet food animals (old rams and ewes, I only sell to a abbatoir/handler that is approved by the pet food mfrs

2 I don't sell animals to be butchered directly by the buyers unless they produce a chain of custody from the licensed butcher that that butcher will dispatch and butcher the animal


I DONT MAKE UP THESE RULES THOMAS. I can state that you need to understand the fundamentals . e carry insurance and we are inspected routinely. PETA comes along and tries to harass us from time to time, We have gone from being a mom n pop breeder of meat animals to a business that requires us to be sensitive of our liabilities
SInce Denmark operates under EU rules, I imagine their food handling practices are similar (even for "pet" foods or for "performing or exhibit animals) .


JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 01:40 pm
@farmerman,
Farmerman: So I am being quite consistent .
---

You are, farmer, consistently deceptive.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 05:45 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Quote:
Killing a healthy animal because it's inconvenient, although not hostile and not actively doing harm except by existing, indicates a lack of empathy.


That is probably why I am on the fence - you can understand, but it doesn't feel right - the empathy thing.

You don't have empathy? I believe that's a valid definition of evil.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 05:47 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon: You don't have empathy? I believe that's a valid definition of evil.

You've defined yourself, Brandon, and cast the circle wide.
0 Replies
 
Miss L Toad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:09 pm
@farmerman,
Naturally I blame myself for this meat and great frenzy.

If only I hadn't mentioned cameleopard then Linkat wouldn't have googled it.

But jokes aside, you are making quite the shambles of spelling abattoir aren't you.

Otherwise it's apparent that that's the only one and it's all about respect.

Reckon I'll go get me some road kill, why waste time here?



farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:24 pm
@Miss L Toad,
spelling is something with which ive never been friendly. abattoir, abbatoir, abbotour, you folks know , and if you don't, google often spells it out asking, "is thi what you mean?"
Miss L Toad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2014 12:26 am
@farmerman,
That along with the carrot and the shtick of having shambles and its synonym abattoir so cleverly concealed in a well respected slaughterhouse.

Many would die for my lamb of god recipe.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2014 04:27 am
http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/01-ohne-worte-schafhaupt-30262187_mbqf-1357910610-28058530/2,w=650,c=0.bild.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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