Cruel or the Circle of Life?

@Brandon9000,

Quote:

Killing a healthy animal because it's inconvenient, although not hostile and not actively doing harm except by existing, indicates a lack of empathy.

That is probably why I am on the fence - you can understand, but it doesn't feel right - the empathy thing.

2 Replies

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

I think the parents oughta be consulted on such a "visual treat"

The zoo announced to the public what it was going to do. I am assuming, admittedly without knowing, that the zoo posted signs near the entrance to the venue. Nobody had to come; no parent had to bring their. Is there anyone claiming that they walked in on the culling by accident?

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@farmerman,

Quote:

I think the parents oughta be consulted on such a "visual treat"

From all appearances it seems the parents would know - - this was a planned killing and from the pictures and what things state, everyone knew fully well they would see the animal slaughered.

I wouldn't suggest having a young child watch this -- but it seems they would have had to know about it advance.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon: Killing a healthy animal because it's inconvenient, although not hostile and not actively doing harm except by existing, indicates a lack of empathy. They should have spent the money to find it another home. By the way, acting like you don't know what I'm going on about will also indicate a lack of empathy. If you have the empathy, you don't have to ask why it would have been worth the money.

------------------------

I think your empathy is admirable, Brandon, as is Linkat's. thanks for caring. It's people like you that make this world a better place.

----------------------------

"...in four months,
five times as many
people died in
Indonesia as in
Vietnam in
twelve years."
-- Bertrand Russell, 1966

Ex-agents say CIA compiled death lists for Indonesians

After 25 years, Americans speak of their
role in exterminating Communist Party

by Kathy Kadane, States News Service, 1990

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. government played a significant role in one of the worst massacres of the century by supplying the names of thousands of Communist Party leaders to the Indonesian army, which hunted down the leftists and killed them, former U.S. diplomats say.
For the first time, U.S. officials acknowledge that in 1965 they systematically compiled comprehensive lists of Communist operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres. As many as 5,000 names were furnished to the Indonesian army, and the Americans later checked off the names of those who had been killed or captured, according to the U.S. officials.

The killings were part of a massive bloodletting that took an estimated 250,000 lives.

The purge of the Partai Komunis Indonesia (PKI) was part of a U.S. drive to ensure that Communists did not come to power in the largest country in Southeast Asia, where the United States was already fighting an undeclared war in Vietnam. Indonesia is the fifth most-populous country in the world.

Silent for a quarter-century, former senior U.S. diplomats and CIA officers described in lengthy interviews how they aided Indonesian President Suharto, then army leader, in his attack on the PKI.

"It really was a big help to the army," said Robert J. Martens, a former member of the U.S. Embassy's political section who is now a consultant to the State Department. "They probably killed a lot of people, and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment."

...

http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

I think the parents oughta be consulted on such a "visual treat"

I think once you name an animal, it becomes more "human"in a sense. That is why if you have a farm and raise animals for food - you do not name them. They become a pet sort of.

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@Linkat,

Awwwwwwwwwww, that is just so sweet, Linkat. You are obviously a really caring person.

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@saab,

Quote:

Every day all over world animals are killed because of overpopulation in zoos, parks and other areas. Noone cares.

I don't think that is the case - that no one cares - I think in the case, it has been made public and gone kinda viral. Other animals might cause a stir - I think it is just most of the public probably doesn't realize.

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"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" (Hamlet Act 1, sc 4)

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@Linkat,

I don't think that is the case - that no one cares - I think in the case, it has been made public and gone kinda viral. Other animals might cause a stir - I think it is just most of the public probably doesn't realize.

/////////////

What do you figure it would take to make the story of the USA government organizing Indonesian death squads go viral, Linkat?

Do you think the lack of caring is because the American people don't know or do you think it is more an issue of not caring?

Do you personally care? Say as much as you do about the giraffe?

Let's see - 250,000 people versus 1 giraffe with a name.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

You seem to be poo pooing the Danes for their Viking-like attitudes toward life.

I'm not. I am applauding them for being consequent. There was nothing wrong with what they did; they had nothing to hide. Consequently, they didn't hide it. That's a good thing.

farmerman wrote:

Do you approve of killing as part of the entertainment?

If the zoo posted signs around the venue to make sure everybody knew what they were going to watch --- yes.

farmerman wrote:

Is a giraffe sacrificed to just keep hybrid vigor without checking other zoos to donate a specimen?

They did check this option. There were no openings within the EAZA network of zoos, which follow the same biodiversity policies as the Copenhagen zoo does. Zoos outside their network tend to have sloppy animal-welfare standards Transferring the giraffe to one of them would make him suffer more than killing would, in the Copenhagen Zoo's judgment. You might want to check the Boston Globe's Q&A page on these things. It addresses several of your concerns, including this one.

farmerman wrote:

Do you know which species the girffe was? (There are several species of giraffe that are endangered.

The zoo says this giraffe belonged to a species that was not endangered. Again, check the Boston Globe's Q&A.

farmerman wrote:

You've given these douche bag zookeepers a pass for some rather silly reasons

That's just your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, but nobody elected you A2K's arbiter of whether something is silly or not.

2 Replies

@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

Quote:
Killing a healthy animal because it's inconvenient, although not hostile and not actively doing harm except by existing, indicates a lack of empathy.

That is probably why I am on the fence - you can understand, but it doesn't feel right - the empathy thing.

Are you a vegetarian? If not, do you empathise with the animals you eat? Do you think you have a duty to?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas: That's just your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, but nobody elected you A2K's arbiter of whether something is silly or not.

"Opinion", I think not! Farmerman is an academic!

0 Replies

@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

Quote:
I think the parents oughta be consulted on such a "visual treat"

I think once you name an animal, it becomes more "human"in a sense.

I agree it becomes more human to us, but how would an animal know if humans gave it a name or not? It makes no difference to it. The thrust of the outrage seems to be that the zoo did wrong by the giraffe (as the zoo puts it) or Marius (as the protesters put it). But if it's the name that makes the difference, the zoo could have only done wrong by the humans who watched. If the humans watched by their own choice, how have they been wronged? I can see why one might get outraged at the grown-up watchers for bringing their kids, who had no choice in the matter. That was arguably a bad parenting decision. But the zoo?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Actually I say a prayer whenever I cook lobster. I do have a certain amount of empathy even in regard to animals I eat.

Although I do differentiate between animal for food and those as pets -- thus the naming of an animal comment.

You cannot understand because you are not as caring about other living creatures - simply your makeup. You (in reading many of your posts) simple react, write, etc. through logic and thinking - most humans also react via an emotional side. Yours tends to much more simple logic and little emotion and feeling.

4 Replies

@Thomas,

Again you are only thinking - logic - you show little or no emotion or caring -- simple logic. Probably why this zoo could do as they did so. I am not saying one is wrong over another -- simply that a part of what makes us human is our other side of things.

And animals do often times know they are named - my dog answers to his name. This giraffee may or may not know he was named. You can't really ask him or understand what he knows so you cannot even logically know this.

1 Reply

@Linkat,

Linkat: You cannot understand because you are not as caring about other living creatures - simply your makeup. You (in reading many of your posts) simple react, write, etc. through logic and thinking - most humans also react via an emotional side. Yours tends to much more simple logic and little emotion and feeling.

Interesting when weighed against the article I posted describing the USA government's death squads in Indonesia, Linkat.

Possibly you have me on ignore so you are unable to see how hypocritical you seem.

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@Linkat,

If you had read what I wrote and listened to the interview with the zoo direktor you would by now know that NOBODY absolutely NOBODY saw the animal abeing slaughtered.
Sorry about the capital letters.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

If the zoo posted signs around the venue to make sure everybody knew what they were going to watch --- yes

hypothetical. It turns out that they DID NOT kill the animl in front of an audience as was said in the opening lines, So you don't have to make a make-believe argument for its "education values"(THAT was even a stretch by my set of values).The rest of your argument about "posting signs" isnt what Id consider any more than a warning at a given moment . How bout they let people know way before they come to the zoo for an outing to see the animals NOT get slaughtered.

Quote:

They did check this option. [/ quote] Apparently there was a zoo that would take it
The trouble is that Im only getting my news about this from this thread and some of the info is flat wrong (sorta like Fox and CNN doing a news chase with a need to be first over being right)

My biggest concern was the whole issue of some slaughtering and butchering (as it turns out this was an error by the OP). Still, I certainly hope that the rest of the post about slaughter in public was also n error and that there was some health policy followed throughout.

The article mde the zoo sound really callous so my arguments would stand if they were true. I don't think you had any more knowledge at first than I so I would criticize your giving a "Pass" to the zoo for what would have been some dumb moves

Quote:
but nobody elected you A2K's arbiter of whether something is silly or not

Well, I appointed myself since what was reported initially was damn dumb behavior by a professional organization. It turns out it wasn't true but I had no way of knowing till Saab made the point .
The only interesting thing from the international realms in todays Times was the suicide bomb instructor in Iraq who blew himself up along with his "class" of volunteer martyrs.

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@saab,

But people have seen, do know about USA government death squads, Saab. That seems to not make any difference to those infused with moral goodness.

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@Linkat,

In Copenhagen zoo between 30 - 50 animals are killed every year because of similar situations as the giraffe. I have never heard that people really cared about that.
The same thing happens in zoos all over the world and have you heard people make so much about it.
Have you or anyone you knwo protested against the live killing in Chineese zoosß There a live animal is left in the cage with lions or tigers.

2 Replies

Cruel or the Circle of Life?

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