Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 06:30 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I'm delighted I have been an enlightening influence on you.

Keep on saying funny BS then. Just remember I have little patience for war crime apologists.


Aha...once again you have mistaken me for someone who cares at all about how much patience you have for anything. Wink
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 07:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Not at all. I just want you to remain as delighted as you professed to be of your "enlightening influence" on me, and more and more everyday... It chagrined me to see you any less than delighted.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 07:59 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Not at all. I just want you to remain as delighted as you professed to be of your "enlightening influence" on me, and more and more everyday... It chagrined me to see you any less than delighted.



Ahhh...much better than the last post. You are back on track. There are some subtleties you'll have to master.

But plenty of time! Wink
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 02:25 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
For those who don't like the fact that I am defending my country...

...TOUGH.


You're not doing a very good job. You're making people focus on what America has done wrong. And your defence is based on imagination and no real evidence.

In many ways JTT has done a better job, because his personality is so repulsive that regardless of the veracity of what he posts, you end up feeling sorry for America.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 02:28 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Aliens is a very us and them term Dave. With us or against us, that sort of thing.

The Boston bombers were aliens who formed negative impressions of America and look what they went on to do. Maybe if someone had taken an interest in their opinions they could have been thwarted.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 06:17 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The suspicion was not widespread at the time. The only country that believed such nonsense was America because of your gung ho media. The rest of the world could tell it was nonsense.

Hans Blix was the one asking for more time not Saddam Hussein. He wasn't given more time because that would have proven there weren't any WMDs, and that was the last thing Bush wanted.

I never called you a liar, but you clearly want to believe something and facts be damned. Do you think that invading the North Pole is the only way to be sure that Santa doesn't exist?

No, the belief that Iraq likely had hidden its former WMD research programs, rather than dismantling them, was widespread at the time and with good reason. Iraq had had active WMD programs. To quote the Wikipedia:

" Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. "

which is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_wmd

The comparison with Santa Claus is a bad one. There is no consequence for Santa Claus not existing. On the other hand, if Saddam Hussein still retained his former WMD programs, then one day, they would have achieved their goal and an evil monster with a history using deadly weapons targeted deliberately at civilians, and a history of invading his neighbors would have acquired weapons so powerful that a single use of one could kill half a million people.

It is interesting that you say: "The only country that believed such nonsense was America..." since you previously claimed that we didn't believe it but lied. It is perfectly reasonable to have believed it at the time since so many people did, and your only justification for calling it a lie is your apparent reading of George Bush's mind.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 06:25 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Aliens is a very us and them term Dave.
With us or against us, that sort of thing.

The Boston bombers were aliens who formed negative impressions
of America and look what they went on to do. Maybe if someone
had taken an interest in their opinions they could have been thwarted.
I was not thinking in terms of "With us or against us", Izzy,
when I wrote that. I was thinking more (defaulting to) assuming America IS the Universe.

In writing that, I did not have in mind aliens who already were IN America,
so much as whatever is beyond our borders.

There is a school of thought sometimes heard in America
that we shud craft our policy to appeal to the taste of collectivist
minded folks beyond our borders. Those who say that usually are
people whose philosophies are inconsistent with the principles
of Individual Liberty of the Founders of this Republic. I eagerly
wish to resist and oppose them, to fight back.





David
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:05 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The Boston bombers were aliens who formed negative impressions of America and look what they went on to do. Maybe if someone had taken an interest in their opinions they could have been thwarted.

Always interested in your point of view but I must say. That's absolute rubbish Very Happy
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:14 am
@Brandon9000,
I said something to the effect that gullible people who believe what they're told believe it. The Bush admin knew full well that there were no WMDs, otherwise they wouldn't have exaggerated the paltry evidence they did have. Those in the UN security council who didn't have a vested interest saw through the lies and half truths they were presented with.

I hardly think the consequences of allowing an enfeebled Hussein, with no WMDs, to stay in power would be worse than what's happening now. Half a million dead Iraqi civilians, Al Qaida running rings around the Iraqi government, which incidentally is in the pockets of Iranian government, Al Qaida strengthened in Syria and North Africa and a population who don't want western intervention whatever the cost.

Not only was the invasion of Iraq a criminal act and morally wrong it was monumentally incompetent. A half baked plan with inadequate funds that failed in every single one of its objectives. It couldn't have gone better for Al Qaida if Bin Laden had planned the operation himself
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:17 am
@OmSigDAVID,
DAVE
Quote:
There is a school of thought sometimes heard in America
that we shud craft our policy to appeal to the taste of collectivist
minded folks beyond our borders.


I'm afraid foreign policy is a tad too complicated for ya Dave. How would you review the Wolfowitz Doctrine. Have you even heard of it?

Quote:
The Wolfowitz Doctrine is an unofficial name given to the initial version of the Defense Planning Guidance for the 1994–99 fiscal years (dated February 18, 1992) authored by Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Paul Wolfowitz and his deputy Scooter Libby.

Not intended for public release, it was leaked to the New York Times on March 7, 1992, and sparked a public controversy about U.S. foreign and defense policy. The document was widely criticized as imperialist as the document outlined a policy of unilateralism and pre-emptive military action to suppress potential threats from other nations and prevent any other nation from rising to superpower status.

Such was the outcry that the document was hastily re-written under the close supervision of U.S. Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell before being officially released on April 16, 1992.
Many of its tenets re-emerged in the Bush Doctrine, which was described by Senator Edward M. Kennedy as "a call for 21st century American imperialism that no other nation can or should accept


Ted Kennedy foresaw quite a bit of bloodshed comin' down the pike; collateral damage Dave that you calculate is reasonable. No?

Scooter Libby?? He was formulating foreign policy? Goodness!!
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:19 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
A half baked plan with inadequate funds that failed in every single one of its objectives. It couldn't have gone better for Al Qaida if Bin Laden had planned the operation himself

All true. However Tony sold it to you guys and for that we're grateful. No more chits will be presented the next 50 years I imagine.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:30 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
For those who don't like the fact that I am defending my country...

...TOUGH.


You're not doing a very good job. You're making people focus on what America has done wrong. And your defence is based on imagination and no real evidence.

In many ways JTT has done a better job, because his personality is so repulsive that regardless of the veracity of what he posts, you end up feeling sorry for America.


Sorry you feel I am doing a poor job.

I am simply stating what I think...but you certainly are entitled to your opinion.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
To be honest Frank I'd rather think nicely of America than rake over the coals ad nauseam. I'm being honest with you about the effect I think your thread has had. Ask yourself has this thread had the desired outcome. I really don't think it has.

However, you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that as this is A2K, with a small audience, any damage to America's reputation is tiny and localised.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:51 am
@panzade,
Tony never sold it to us, he just pressed on regardless. The Commons vote on Syria was monumental. It was the first time our legislature refused an American request since WW2. (Harold Wilson personally refused to get us involved in Vietnam.) That's George W Bush's legacy, and the financial crisis, and an angry Middle East, and China in a position where it could sink the dollar with a couple of phone calls, and a robust Al Qaida.

I'm amazed that anyone can still believe he was a good president. Can you think of anything positive to say about his term in office?
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:51 am
@izzythepush,
it ended...
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:53 am
@Rockhead,
Yes there is that.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 08:59 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
he just pressed on regardless.

the definition of a good salesman Very Happy
I don't mind you slapping Frank around for re-writing history but don't do it yourself

Quote:
It was the first time our legislature refused an American request since WW2.

Like I said. The debt's been paid in full.
Quote:
Can you think of anything positive to say about his (Bush)term in office?

No. But there are many here on A2K who would disagree. The jingoistic rah-rah group that approves of the Wolfowitz Doctrine among a few.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 09:01 am
@panzade,
I'm not rewriting history. We had the biggest march in History opposing intervention in Iraq, and the majority of the population were against intervention.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 09:02 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

To be honest Frank I'd rather think nicely of America than rake over the coals ad nauseam. I'm being honest with you about the effect I think your thread has had. Ask yourself has this thread had the desired outcome. I really don't think it has.


My "desired outcome" is, and always was, to share my thoughts that the US has been more restrained in its use of force than other world powers showed when they were at the peak of their power.

It has worked out perfectly, Izzy. I have shared them.

There are people...some being Americans...who will show great hatred and anger toward the American government no matter what. If they used this thread to vent their bile...fine. I use other threads in similar ways...so I completely understand. And doing so is their prerogative and right.

You have shared your opinion with me...several times, now, Izzy...and I have shared mine.

Quote:
However, you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that as this is A2K, with a small audience, any damage to America's reputation is tiny and localised.


I will continue to speak out my opinion that the US has been more restrained in its use of its power than previous world powers...and if you want to feel that I am damaging America's reputation by doing so...please continue that as well. And the people who think I am wrong...certainly are invited to continue to think me incorrect.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2014 09:05 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

To be honest Frank I'd rather think nicely of America than rake over the coals ad nauseam. I'm being honest with you about the effect I think your thread has had. Ask yourself has this thread had the desired outcome. I really don't think it has.

However, you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that as this is A2K, with a small audience, any damage to America's reputation is tiny and localised.


I should not speak for Frank, but I saw his purpose as merely pointing out that calling America "a bully" is not fair.
 

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