I cannot go along with the claim that the sins of the United States are comparatively less than those of other nations--that Americans are "not as bad." During the Second World War, the United States Army Air Force fire-bombed more than 60 Japanese cities (using an ordnance mix they learned about from the RAF). It might be pointed out that the United States was attacking Japan, who had begun a war against the United States. That doesn't alter, though, that the targets of the raids were civilians. The USAAF commander, Curtis Le May, told his staff aide, Robert McNamara, that if they lost the war, they would be hung as war criminals. Le May, at least, had on illusions about what he was doing. The Japanese committed horrible atrocities in that war, and began doing it four years before the United States entered the war. The does not justify or excuse subsequent American actinos. That the United States carried out such attacks does not justify nor excuse what the Japanese did in that war.
Totaling up the butcher's bill is a difficult exercise. I see no good reason to suggest that the United States has exercised a restraint that other nations have not shown.
Thank you for sharing that, Setanta. Obviously I disagree, but I can see the argument you are making...and I acknowledge the validity of many of the points made.
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Foofie
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Wed 15 Jan, 2014 12:55 pm
Nature abhors a vacuum. So, if there was no U.S., as a superpower, who would have taken on that role, and how "caring" would they have been, as they wielded power? Basically, in my opinion, western Europe would be under the hegemony of a Soviet Union. Germany would be one bigger East Germany. And, perhaps, China and the Soviets would have exchanged nuclear missiles.
In my opinion again, the criticisms of the U.S. reminds me of when some left-wing, academician Jewish liberals may spout "self-hating" rhetoric regarding the belief that Jews brought anti-Semitism on themselves by being "too successful." Well, that's the price of not acting stupid in a world of average intelligence.
So, the U.S. aptitude for coming up with innovations, throughout the industrial revolution, that made English hand made objects, with the apprenticeship system, unable to compete with the U.S.'s mass production techniques I guess reflects an aptitude that Europe was not ready for.
What it comes down to is that the jealousies, and rivalries, that reflected European politics for 1,000 years, did not have to be repeated in a country (the U.S.) that was the size of three Europes, and an expanding population. So, the criticisms of the U.S., in my opinion, just shows the ingratitude and inability to thank the U.S. for maintaining a degree of homeostasis in the world in a nuclear age. Note how after centuries of wars in Europe, coincidentally at the dawn of the nuclear age, Europeans suddenly were able to swallow their jealousies and rivalries and get along. Europeans are so phony, in my opinion, it is laughable.
Let's not forget the Berlin Airlift. Who else would have done that. Europe when it won wars would either vanquish their enemies, kill off a portion of the enemy population or relocate it, annex territory, etc. The U.S. has a record of being economic allies with previous enemies.
In my opinion, it has become so much the fad to find fault with the U.S., especially if one is not from an old line family, and might not realize that ancestors came to the U.S., since Europe possibly treated their respective families like an expendable population. I believe that while some Americans criticize their country, most Europeans still have uber hubris about their respective national pride. Let's get out the cat 'o nine tails for a little better self-flagellation. Don't forget the hair shirt.
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maxdancona
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Wed 15 Jan, 2014 02:12 pm
And... how far back do we go in this accounting. The atrocities of the Mexican American war and the Trail of Tears are big black marks against us.
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Frank Apisa
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Wed 15 Jan, 2014 02:32 pm
FOR EVERYONE:
Look, there is no doubt America has done some disgusting things...and has been an unwelcome intruder often.
I am simply saying here that we have been relatively less savage and barbaric than other prior world powers have been.
Frankly, I do not think we will be the single most powerful nation (if we actually are right now)...for much longer. I think national power tends to move a bit...and just as the Greeks once were a major power...and the Romans were a major power...and Great Britain was once a major power...
...things change. The Soviet Union went south almost overnight...and the killing blow for the United States may already be in the brewing stage. A major break-up of the Union is not a major long shot...and I would not be astonished to see it happen even during my lifetime (and I am 77).
But if we were to extrapolate what Greece or Rome or Great Britain might have done with the power we have...considering what they did with the power they had when they were powerful...
...I suggest things would be much worse for the world right now.
They showed much less restraint than we are...although I acknowledge that we have been buffoons at times.
Why do you think the way America treated the native population better than how the British Empire treated its subjects. Slavery was banned in the British Empire 1843 for over thirty years before it was abolished in America.
We've come to terms with the horrors of our colonialism, you haven't.
In fact, this thread is by far the best argument for International Socialism on A2K.
Compared with what the great world powers of history did (Greece, Rome, and such)…we Americans are much better than just “relatively restrained” in the use of the disparity of power.
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am simply saying here that we have been relatively less savage and barbaric than other prior world powers have been.
You certainly are correct .... when you look at it in 2014 as a person, living today, socialised in 20th and 21rst century.
Of course, you can compare living in antique Sparta with that in downtown Las Vegas today.
But all that makes as much sense, in my opinion, as saying, Leopold Lojka, archduke Franz Ferdinand's driver, started WWI.
Why do you think the way America treated the native population better than how the British Empire treated its subjects. Slavery was banned in the British Empire 1843 for over thirty years before it was abolished in America.
I just think that Great Britain at the height of its power in the 18th century...ran roughshod over a great deal of the planet. Talk about unwelcome colonization! And they went elsewhere to do it.
Granted...the Europeans who colonized this country did an horrendous injustice to the native population. But that was started while we were still colonists of Great Britain...and carried on during the period just after our separation.
What we did to the native population was terrible.
But right now...it is my opinion that our exercise of power is relatively restrained compared with what others have done while they were at the top of the power heap.
I get that you do not agree...and that is fine with me. I is a reasonable point of contention...and you may be right and I wrong.
Quote:
We've come to terms with the horrors of our colonialism, you haven't.
What makes you say that?
Quote:
In fact, this thread is by far the best argument for International Socialism on A2K.
Not sure what that means...but I would be delighted if International Socialism became the remaining economic system. I am a capitalist...and I think that in order for any economy to prosper, there must be reward for personal initiative...
...but the capitalistic system now in operation in the United States needs an immediate and healthy dose of socialism as a buffer to the excesses of the system as it now works.
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Frank Apisa
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Wed 15 Jan, 2014 02:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Compared with what the great world powers of history did (Greece, Rome, and such)…we Americans are much better than just “relatively restrained” in the use of the disparity of power.
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am simply saying here that we have been relatively less savage and barbaric than other prior world powers have been.
You certainly are correct .... when you look at it in 2014 as a person, living today, socialised in 20th and 21rst century.
Of course, you can compare living in antique Sparta with that in downtown Las Vegas today.
But all that makes as much sense, in my opinion, as saying, Leopold Lojka, archduke Franz Ferdinand's driver, started WWI.
Okay...and of course one to one comparisons leave a lot of room for argument.
Interesting perspectives from all contributors so far.
At some point I hope the top dog stops the "I can kick anyone's ass here" mentality...and works to make the entire planet a better place in which to live. We all...the capable and the much less capable...deserve a hell of a lot better than we are getting right now.
Slavery was abolished by the 13th Amendment in December, 1865. That's a lot less than 30 years. Your remarks also ignore that the "abolition" of slavery on applied to the West Indies. It did nothing for the coolies in India, who were, in fact, shipped across the empire to replace the black slaves. This is a BBC documentary, not some "Yanks" trying to slur your country.
While the US-navy was fighting "savages and barbarians" in north Africa, President Jefferson imposed "settlement, manufacturing, and civilization" onto the Native Americans.
I really think that people, any people in the so-called civilised world, had more or less the very same ideas in the same period.
And if they hadn't - they got them later, because "the others were doing it as well" ...
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izzythepush
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Wed 15 Jan, 2014 03:21 pm
@Setanta,
Oh piss off, I've not got time for your mean spiritedness. It was a BBC documentary wasn't it? Have an argument with someone who can be bothered, I'm sure you've got a mirror handy.
Frank Apisa said: Great Britain, when at its most powerful, treated the rest of the world as a vassal state…intruded when and where it wanted…whenever it wanted. Spain did the same; as did France and Portugal. Germany was no slouch either
Yes we civilised the world by stopping the jungle tribes from eating each other and stopping the American tribes from scalping each other, job well done..
