Sumac and Diane...what the hell?
This political debate is no different than all the other ones on A2K...as far as I can see
Quote:I tend to go with my own substantial experience in these things...
the problem is that your
substantial experience has led to to make the wrong conclusions in numerous situations, as you have demonstrated on this forum. Just becasue you find some of Bush's comments inconsistent woth your mental picture of the man does not mean that he did not make them. I would assert that what it in fact means is that your impression of him is erroneous.
I will add, for the record, that disagreeing with you is not the same
as insulting you.
None of the apologies for Bush's religious references excuses him from sermonizing (pontificating) even if briefly. He is not a cleric, he is a political leader. The Bosnian War has never been disputed as a humanistic endeavor -- it was, after all, Moslems by-and-large who were the victims of ethnic cleasing.
If I want a broadcast sermon, I'll turn to Pat Roberson's channel. Not.
Panzade, I know, I know--maybe it's PMS except for the fact that I'm far beyond that. Sometimes I actually enjoy these, but this one seems particularly pointless, for some reason.
Still, you, Setanta, hobitbob and Dys are good for some head nodding and the occasional subltlty that is never picked up on by most.
Come on, Sumac, let's give them their lead.
What's particularly noticeable about this one is that Fedral ,Tarantulas and McGentry are nowhere to be found. Which makes me wonder if it's a particularly odorous position which Foxy is valiantly defending almost single-handedly.
Could be, panzade.
I forgot to mention LW, c.i. and Edgar, when he decides to get involved. Guess I have much less patience than the rest of you.
You mean "The Usual Suspects" I know ...I know.
What I can't abide is the name calling and slurs. I try to be polite in my debate and I usually tune out when the mud slinging starts...which is usually on the third post...lately...lol
Setanta wrote:The following is from a New Zealand news site, Scoop: "Combined with a recent report in the Israeli daily newspaper Ha'aretz that Bush said "God told me" to invade Afghanistan and Iraq . . . " (the diaresis represents an insulting comment about Bush, which it occurred to me you wouldn't appreciate.) Therefore, in the interest of your conviction that the Hobit is making it all up, i found this at the on-line site of the Isreali daily newspaper Ha'aretz:
Arnon Regular wrote:"Abbas said that at Aqaba, Bush promised to speak with Sharon about the siege on Arafat. He said nobody can speak to or pressure Sharon except the Americans.
According to Abbas, immediately thereafter Bush said: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
Yes, Fox, i do see that you ignore that which is not conducive to establishing your argument.
Let me get this straight... you are quoting Arnon Regular, who said that Abbas said what Bush said? And you don't see how this can be construed as not being a direct quote from George Bush? If that's what passes muster these days I can see why the left is in the straits that it is.
Pan, as you can see from the above post, there are those who don't even pretend to care about discussion.
Well, I can see I woke McGentry up from his nap, but what I don't understand is whether these horrific quotes of Bush are real, implied or made up. I need to know this in order to make a judgement about McG's thread. It seems this is the crux of the thread. Will somebody clarify this?
Foxfire
Quote:. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom. We have an obligation to help feed the hungry. We have an obligation to lead the fight on AIDS, on Africa. And we have an obligation to work toward a more free world. That's our obligation. That is what we have been called to do, as far as I'm concerned."
Is that written in our constitution? I know of no such obligations. And if indeed we had we are doing a damn lousy job of it. I wonder who Bush speaks about when he says we have been called upon to fulfill those obligations? His personal mentor God?
If you'll check back on some of Bill Clinton's speeches, you'll find the same kind of rhetoric. Also in Reagan and Carter's take on some of this stuff. I can't remember G. Bush the First ever saying something like that, but I'm getting old and my memory is failing me.
Every one of these men acknowledged Christian roots and the Bible does have a verse or two something to the effect that "Of he who has much, much will be expected." Whether that's what these guys meant or whether that is what GWB meant, I can't say. But do you oppose the thesis? If so, why?
panzade wrote:Well, I can see I woke McGentry up from his nap, but what I don't understand is whether these horrific quotes of Bush are real, implied or made up. I need to know this in order to make a judgement about McG's thread. It seems this is the crux of the thread. Will somebody clarify this?
Several sources exist.
http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/dubya.htm
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/bush.htm
Are most clearly focussed on religion.
Fox, I am asking again, do you not understand the diffrerence between the Clinton quotes you listed and the BUsh quotes I and others have listed?
Yes Hobitbob I understand the difference. The difference between you and me is you choose to believe words that somebody else puts in the president's mouth. I don't.
Foxfyre wrote:Yes Hobitbob I understand the difference. The difference between you and me is you choose to believe words that somebody else puts in the president's mouth. I don't.
Who put words into his mouth? These are quotes. You seem quite skilled at hiding from things that might challenge your worldview.
Any quotes from words actually spoken by George Bush? No. I see no difference between the way he speaks of God and his faith and the way every other president in my lifetime has spoken of God and faith (with the possible exception of George the First--can't remember really his take on it, but knowing him, I would guess he could be included.)
Abbas?...well, I'm gonna reserve judgement on the veracity.
Foxfyre wrote:Any quotes from words actually spoken by George Bush? No. I see no difference between the way he speaks of God and his faith and the way every other president in my lifetime has spoken of God and faith (with the possible exception of George the First--can't remember really his take on it, but knowing him, I would guess he could be included.)
What on earth are you yammering about? Did you go to the sites? If so, you would have seen that each quote is referenced, often with a link to the initial report.
I fail to see how that in any way affects my opinion on this subject. I do not see GWB's references to God, faith, Christianity, religion yadda yadda as sinister or improper in any way or any different from the same rhetoric from other presidents. I won't accept sources that put words in his mouth that I do not believe he said. I'm sorry you don't like that, but with no more evidence than you've given me, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Foxfyre wrote:I fail to see how that in any way affects my opinion on this subject. I do not see GWB's references to God, faith, Christianity, religion yadda yadda as sinister or improper in any way or any different from the same rhetoric from other presidents. I won't accept sources that put words in his mouth that I do not believe he said. I'm sorry you don't like that, but with no more evidence than you've given me, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I have hilighted what seems to be the core of most of your postings, and what tends to make them flawed. I'm sorry you are such a closed minded individual. I'm sure it serves you well to embrace ignorance the way you seem to.
