Democrats Are Risking Political Damnation

What the cute doggy said.

Pazade if you have any documentation or even empirical evidence that George W. Bush's beliefs anywhere remotely approach something like a Christian jihad I would like to see it.

Given the depth of irrational loathing and hate demonstrated for this man by some of you, I don't know how you justify it in your minds or how you even sleep at night. It is totally foreign to me and, frankly, this kind of fanaticism bothers me a whole lot more than any gaff committed by any president in my lifetime.

I'd be interested to see the mental gymnastics in which you would indulge, Fox, to explain the distinction between a President who claims to be on a mission from god, and promptly and preemptively invades another country, costing us hudreds of our soldiers, and the unfortunates of that country thousands of their fellow citizens--and a Muslim jihadist. It also seems that you cannot read criticizism of the Shrub without characterizing it as "irrational loathing" or "hate." I don't loathe the man, i don't know the man, and am frankly uniterested in making his acquaintance. That is because i loathe what he has done to our nation in the course of fulfilling his "mission from god."

To quote Bush:
"God told me to invade Afghanistan, and I did. He told me to rem,ove Saddam, and I did that to. Next he told me to solve the Israel-Palestinian problem, and I'm working on that."
"Freedom is a gift from the almighty to America, and it is our responsibility to spread this gift to the world."

Are those good enough?

"I condemn the president because he believes in his Christian jihad."

There, that's my source. I said it because I believe it. But fair enough and touche. I forgot to write IMO.

But don't you see my point Foxfyre? When you overthrow a ruler and profess a belief in a certain God and religion and a belief that the Christian tenets guarantee certain freedoms to those liberated...that this is a type of jihad no different from the Islamic jihad which you abhor? And that the separation of church and state is what separates us from unevolved societies?

This has zero to do with separation of church and state unless you are saying for a president to profess his faith and belief violates that and I don't think you are saying that.

I think the 'anybody but Bush' crowd so hates this man they read the worst possible interpretation into anything he says. I do not believe you can make a case that Bush said God had told him we were assured victory. If he said, from the heart, that Christianity insists on freedom, this is saying what Christianity is, not what it does in the case of Iraq. I'm not sure he even said that without going back and re-reading the transcript.

My point is, GWB has not rammed his faith down anybody's throat. He professes what he believes. So did Bill Clinton. The 'anybody but Clinton' crowd thought Clinton was a hypocrite and the Democrats thought Clinton's remarks were just fine. But there was no irrational outcry that Clinton was somehow ruling via an edict from God or whatever the hell people are accusing GWB of now.

Its the double standard that just drives me up the wall. We were supposed to forgive any little innocent gaff committed in the former administration, and any innocent gaff in the current one seems to portend doom for the world. It is just idiotic.

Not that I can buy into everything Clinton said or did but when did he specifically evoke the Christian God as instrumental in any decision?

Clinton's "innocent gaffe"(I'm guessing a blow job or whitewater gate) pales in comparison to GB's "innocent gaffe", a 60 BILLION dollar Crusade in Iraq.
I don't think a majority of Americans "share the president's goals"(quoted from thread headline) in diverting 60 billion dollars from education and health care in order to fund a needle-in-the-haystack search for WMD's

To quote Bush:
"God told me to invade Afghanistan, and I did. He told me to rem,ove Saddam, and I did that to. Next he told me to solve the Israel-Palestinian problem, and I'm working on that."
"Freedom is a gift from the almighty to America, and it is our responsibility to spread this gift to the world."

Lightwizard wrote:


The children of this country can learn in a profound way that integrity is important and selfishness is wrong, but God can change us and make us strong at the broken places. I want to embody those lessons for the children of this country -- for that little boy in Florida who came up to me and said that he wanted to grow up and be President and to be just like me. I want the parents of all the children in America to be able to say that to their children. - Bill Clinton - annual prayer breakfast 9-11-98

"I was up rather late last night thinking about and praying about what I ought to say today... I must have God's help to be the person that I want to be…… The children of this country can learn in a profound way that integrity is important and selfishness is wrong, but God can change us and make us strong at the broken places…… I ask that God give me a clean heart, let me walk by faith and not sight…… God bless you." - Bill Clinton 9-12-98

"Let me say, also, that there is much that the world can learn from Islam…… And I thought it was particularly moving that Imam read the passage from the Koran that said that Allah created nations and tribes that we might know one another, not that we might despise one another. We Christians believe that too…… Indeed, I remember that our daughter took a course on Islamic history in high school and read large portions of the Koran, and came home at night and educated her parents about it, and later asked us questions about it." -Bill Clinton - White House 1-12-2000

"Today, we are learning the language in which God created life; we are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift." - Bill Clinton announcing the Human Genome Project 6-27-2000.

We feel even today that the wounds have not healed. But Bosnia must find a way, with God's grace, to lay down the hatreds, to give up the revenge, to go forward together. That is the road, indeed, that is the only road to the future. . . Bill Clinton addressing the Paris Treaty Signing December 14, 1995.

I can probably find lots more, but you get my drift.

Yeah, you had that puppy cocked and aimed...lol
Kudos Fox

panzade wrote:


Richard Kay thought WMD were there. Every member of Congress thought the WMD were there based on intelligence gathered in the Clinton administration alone. All industrialized countries and a fair amount of more primitive ones had intelligence that the WMD were there. John Kerry along with all other members of Congress were given the evidence, pro and con, and concluded the WMD were there. Nobody is saying that Saddam did not use WMD on his own people because he did. Richard Kay's team couldn't find them. They found facilities in which they were made, but couldn't find the WMD.

Did Saddam destroy them? We don't know. He had time to move and hide them. Maybe he did. We don't know. Clinton bombed Saddam because he thought they were there. Did the bombing destroy them? Clinton was quoted not long ago saying he didn't know.

Regardless of whether we found WMD we are there now though, and a free and democratic Iraq will make it worth it. That's what the American people should now be behind.

If you do not want a conservative president, if you don't want conservative policies, if you don't want a religious president, if you want a different deal, then by all means don't vote for GWB in November. I personally think we will be much worse off with John Kerry, but you don't see me making Kerry into the devil himself.

What is it with you people that you have such hate? Why is it that you have to hate to oppose something or somebody? I just don't understand it.

You haven't answered LW's question, Fox, by providing those quotes. Here, i'll repeat it for you as it obviously didn't sink in:



Not a single quotation you provided states or implies that Clinton claimed to have made a policty decision based upon his religious belief. He doesn't say god told him to send troops to Bosnia, he doesn't say that god told him to launch the human genome project.

Not only do you fail to get the cigar, i wouldn't even characterize it as a nice try.

Fox, Not only do you overlook questions directed to you, but your ranting doesn't answer the question why this administration claimed they knew where the WMDs were located. Every member of congress thought they knew Saddam had WMDs, because this administration lied - this according to Senator Feinstein's statement this past week. She also said that she voted with the administration for war on the basis of the claims made by this administration which turned out to be nothing but lies.

Here is GWB's quote from the speech that has created all the sound and fury:
"You know why I do? Because I've seen freedom work right here in our own country. I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom. We have an obligation to help feed the hungry. I think the American people find it interesting that we're providing food for the North Korea people who starve. We have an obligation to lead the fight on AIDS, on Africa. And we have an obligation to work toward a more free world. That's our obligation. That is what we have been called to do, as far as I'm concerned."

I respect your opinions and your thoughtful posts Fox. And I don't hate the president. And I understand how frustrated you get with liberal hypocrisy. I understand all of these things. What I don't understand is how McGentry posts a thread called "Democrats are risking political damnation" and you write:
"What is it with you people that you have such hate? Why is it that you have to hate to oppose something or somebody? I just don't understand it"

I don't understand the connection. Am I being overly obtuse?

And about the WMDs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the United States following a policy of sending Blix and the gang to look for them? And wasn't the United Nations supposed to help monitor that search? Weren't we supposed to work as a grown-up member of the world community...work with others to safeguard us from WMDs? And didn't the "sheriff then say: "Screw you" to the United Nations and the rest of the world, "we'll take care of this our way"

One can easily say that the whole wide world believed Iraq continued to have WoMD, after all the US Intelligence was used as the source for that information. As we later leaned, we, being Congress and the rest of the world so often named as believers, US Intelligence was either wrong or was misused, people and nations were led down a path pased on, perhaps undeserved, credibility. Those that later recanted their support were quickly labeled as un-patriotic (does that sound like Vietnam?) The "war on terrorism" is not going according to plan, it does not seem to be "going" at all" so now Bush etal are looking for back doors to slide out of responsibility via the UN which had first been dismissed as incapable but now seems to the Bush people to be the answer to their dilema. Irony?
Our best hope now is to elect a congress with the intelligence to balance the lop-sided Bush agenda with careful consideration for future actions both domestally and internationally. At the top of the list should be the future of Iraq and the present of Israel/Palestine.

No, that's not the "speech that has created all the sound and fury"--c.i. is absolutely right, you won't answer a direct question, and you won't directly confront the evidence which others present to you. You are studiously ignoring the quotes the Hobit provided, even though he has posted them twice.

Every member of Congress was given THE SAME information available to the President--the evidence for the presence of WMD and the evidence questioning it. Every member of Congress had access to the intelligence furnished from other countries. Every member of Congress came to the same conclusion--Saddam had WMD. Those who claim now that they were misled are a) grossly misrepresenting the facts in order to smear the president and/or b) didn't take the time to do their homework (I suspect Diane Feinstein is in the latter category since she is so often woefully uninformed in other matters.) But if she didn't take time to read the stuff, she is dishonest in accusing the president for misleading her.

panzade, apologies. I shouldn't have lumped everybody into my expression of exasperation at the irrational venom directed at GWB.