6
   

Hateful Jews

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 05:29 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Part of why I got pissed off was that you flew off on white americans not being able to sympathize with black jews from africa.


You're right, and I apologise, but to put it into context, I'd just seen the video. The only response was to attack someone for whom English is not their first language, about their choice of words. At the time all the tags were things like 'troll' and 'anti-Semite,' which very much gave the appearance that people were more concerned about offending Israeli sensibilities than with the welfare of African migrants.

One thing you're wrong about is that the video deals with the treatment of black Jews. It's about non-Jewish African asylum seekers, if they were Jewish they'd have considerably more rights. As it is they're being rounded up into camps.

I know you have problems watching videos, so here's a link to an article about the documentary.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/515033/20131018/new-york-times-rejected-documentary-showing-anti.htm
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 06:08 pm
@izzythepush,
One thing you're wrong about is that the video deals with the treatment of black Jews. It's about non-Jewish African asylum seekers, if they were Jewish they'd have considerably more rights. As it is they're being rounded up into camps.

I didn't know that, and that is complicating upside the walls.

I have bad stories I don't fully know about, my nieces's mother's sons in Liberia that fought in Sierra Leone and were captured there.. and I met them as wee kids, when they came to Los Angeles once. I remember them as little boys.


Oh, well, off topic again.



0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 06:13 pm
As I see it, the main problem with this thread is that so many people misunderstood Cyracuz's intent in posting it, made an entirely unwarranted assumption about Cyracuz's prejudices, automatically labeling them as somehow anti-Semitic, and took up the war cry from there. There is absolutely no valid reason to label this thread with such hateful epithets as 'troll' or 'anti-Semite,' or anything else that implies an unreasonable prejudice. I, too, have been guilty of responding to OmSigDAVID's specific questions about the causes of anti-Jewish feelings and defending myself against izzythepush's accusations, rather than commenting on the video that Cyracuz linked.

So, okay. I'll respond to it now. (1)The behavior of the Israelis in the video is, to say the least, reprehensible; (2) I doubt very much that the video accurately reflects the general sentiments of the majority of Israeli citizens, whether Jewish or Gentile; (3) the Jewish/Arab (or, more accurately Israeli/Palestinian) issue is so emotionally charged that it's virtually impossible for most posters to take an objective, unbiased view.

Now I've said my peace. I'll go sit in the corner quietly and listen to the grown-ups go on beating a decedent nag. Maybe.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 06:17 pm
Well, to summarize, we have lives.

ossobuco
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 06:21 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I didn't misunderstand it, he liked it posting that.

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 06:56 pm
@izzythepush,
Also, I don't do those kind of tags. Stop reacting to those show flame tag.
Listen to me, you know I'm right.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 07:08 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Hey. I didn't like the title, get over it.

I don't think I misunderstood Cyracuz.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 08:52 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
No, Lustig, I get didn't misunderstand.


0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 09:00 pm
@ossobuco,
actually, I'll be back.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Fri 1 Nov, 2013 10:21 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
I, too, have been guilty of responding to OmSigDAVID's specific questions
about the causes of anti-Jewish feelings
I take exception to your implicit condemnation of my posted contributions.
I raised fair and reasonable questions n comments,
addressing the subject matter of the topic title of this thread
in keeping with the ethos, culture and purpose of this forum.




Lustig Andrei wrote:
. . . (3) the Jewish/Arab (or, more accurately Israeli/Palestinian) issue is so emotionally charged
that it's virtually impossible for most posters to take an objective, unbiased view.
FOR THE RECORD:
I wish to dissent from that point of vu,
only insofar as to how I, personally, regard the subject matter,
which is sedate and dispassionate. From that conflict,
I remain free of nightmares.





David
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 02:54 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:

I doubt very much that the video accurately reflects the general sentiments of the majority of Israeli citizens, whether Jewish or Gentile;


I think that's a very hard call to make. The video was jointly made by an Israeli journalist who works for Haaretz, and there are a significant amount of Israelis who are appalled by their Government's actions.

However, since the 1970s Israel has become increasingly more right wing, in part due to the religious extremists that have come from Russia. The last Labor prime minister was in 2001, and it's the Israeli state that's been rounding up African migrants.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 05:53 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

POINT OF INFORMATION, if I may, Foofie (or anyone):
it seems to me from casual observation of history
that Jews have been singular & unique (except the Gypsies,
but obviously, there is a good reason for that; getting Gypped)
in experiencing ill will or negative feeling toward them.
(Other groups have had it e.g., the Armenians from the Turks,
but not as commonly nor as chronically as the Jews.)

Maybe I 'm naive, but I dont know of any reason
for anti-Jewish sentiments. The Jews whom I 've known
have been innocent and honorable. Thay have been
good friends, whose company I have enjoyed. I have never
had any reason to complain about Jews.

It seems odd to me that thay have had so much trouble thru world history.
Do u have any ideas as to the reason for those historical anti-Jewish problems?
To what shud their troubles be attributed ?


David



Those who are perceived to have talents, yet do not assimilate into one's own culture might often be perceived as a competing threat to resources. Plus, Judiaism, as a faith, does not proselytize, and the adherents enjoy each others company, and the company of only certain non-Jews; therefore, they seem to shun many, and are then offensive to many a Gentile ego, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 05:58 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
It seems odd to me that thay have had so much trouble thru world history. gentile Europeans
Do u have any ideas as to the reason for those historical anti-Jewish problems?
To what shud their troubles be attributed ?


That's an easy one. It's attributable simply to the fact that throughout history the Jews living among gentile Europeans deviated in their customs and behaviour quite significantly from the cultural norms set by the dominant culture, i.e. Christian Europe. They were hated for no other reason than that they were different, not conforming to the folkways of the people among whom they dwelt.


However, if they were just a bunch of just "different" dullards, they might have been avoided, but not hated. In my opinion, the fact that they were literate (Hebrew), and perceived to have some talents (addition, subtraction, etc.), were also perceived as a threat.

It also didn't help to initially look different than many Europeans, in that they many might have been on the average, shorter, and swarthy. Note that they got along better with those who looked more like them in southern Europe.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 06:03 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
It seems odd to me that thay have had so much trouble thru world history. gentile Europeans
Do u have any ideas as to the reason for those historical anti-Jewish problems?
To what shud their troubles be attributed ?
Lustig Andrei wrote:
That's an easy one. It's attributable simply to the fact that throughout history the Jews living among gentile Europeans deviated in their customs and behaviour quite significantly from the cultural norms set by the dominant culture, i.e. Christian Europe. They were hated for no other reason than that they were different, not conforming to the folkways of the people among whom they dwelt.
Really?
I wonder if Foofie agrees.
In my observation of Jews in NY, especially in NY Mensa,
including my Jewish girlfriends who lived with me (seriatim),
Jews do not discernibly differ; indistinguishable in their conduct,
except regarding holidays from work. (I never took particular notice
of what anyone orders in restaurants.) The Jews whom I have in mind
made a particular point of identifying themselves as being Jewish
(some of them doing so several times) otherwise, I 'd not necessarily
have known whether or not thay were Jewish; my point is that
I have not found them to be as different in their folkways as u say.

David


Certain supposedly "Jewish" habits are really customs from the country's they lived in, in Europe. Talking with one's hands is seen in certain countries in Europe, including Russia. Exhaling as one sits down, I thought was a custom in Germany. Talking loud is a Russian habit. In effect, Jews were different from the Anglo-Saxon society that met them, when they arrived in the U.S.A.

Also, the emphasis on literacy, and civil behavior was not necessarily the social mores of NYC in the late 19th century. Not being heavy social drinkers was also looked upon as odd. All in my opinion, of course.
Foofie
 
  1  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 06:07 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:

You're talking about 20th Century America, David. Anti-Semitism is not a major problem here today. I'm talking about the entire history of the Jewish diaspora, primarily in Europe. Also, I doubt that any of the Jews you befriended -- or who befriended you -- were of the Orthodox variety (which is the only kind of Jew that existed in the Middle Ages). I doubt that you'd interact quite as easily in a group of Chassidim.


Orthodox are not Chassidim. Chassidim have a mini-Pope, their Rebbe. The Orthodox are just standard Jews that keep the Kosher dietary laws, and the Sabbath, males cover their heads, and some wear a larger version of the Catholic Scapula. And, genetically, they are just hybrids.

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2013/10/08/new.information.discovered.about.ancestry.ashkenazi.jews
Foofie
 
  1  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 06:29 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

... Not only that, but you refer to Europe as if it was one homogeneous entity, just like America, with a federal government. Europe is a collection of separate counties with separate laws, cultures and races.



Some do think of different nationalities in Europe as separate races. I have heard Americans of German and Irish ancestry refer to the German race and the Irish race. Scientists only give partial validity to a few races. The well known are African, Asian, and Caucasian. Actually, we are all Africans, and belong to the human race. That is the difference of Europeans and Americans. Americans are quite busy making an American nationality out of the diversity that is here. Many Americans in the future will just be American, and know that some ancestor was Jewish, since marrying Jews has become fairly common. Plus, only certain bigoted types have thought of Jews as "outsiders" in America. In Europe, "outsider" was a valid moniker, and might still be for many people whose ancestors were not part of those Germanic tribes that settled in Europe in the early Middle Ages.

Plus, America never had "pogroms." Plus, any ghettoization of Jews was usually self-administered in what has been called "golden ghettos" (upscale neighborhoods).

I think it is that willingness of Europeans to label some groups as "outsiders," when that term never existed amongst decent Americans, is what makes Americans a very different people, when compared to Europeans. I personally think it has a lot to do with the fact that while America was basically a Protestant country prior to 1850, they realized that all the new immigrants had to be utilized inorder to get the industrial revolution moving. So, perhaps, from the strictly profit-oriented motive of Max Weber (Protestantism and the Rise of Capitalism), did America treat Jews much differently than Europe. Plus, while Jews have been "pariahs" in the past, in America and Europe, today in the U.S., I will admit that they are still somewhat "social pariahs" amongst many, since they might be very picky as to who they socialize with. But, they do seem to socialize the most with Catholics. Perhaps, Protestants are too deeply involved in their maintaining a public display of a respective social class (a la the machinations of Keeping Up Appearances)? Only the very successful Jews socialize easily amongst the well-to-do Gentiles, in my opinion. Money stays with money. Academically oriented folk stay amongst each other. So do birds of a feather flock together.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 07:05 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Actually, we are all Africans, and belong to the human race.


That bears repeating.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 11:08 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
That bears repeating.


More so than anything you have said.
LvB
 
  0  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 11:20 am
@coldjoint,
qft
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Sat 2 Nov, 2013 11:35 am
@LvB,
Silly Rabbit criminals belong on Amkon.net, not here.
0 Replies
 
 

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