Hateful Jews

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

I'll try once more. The point is that if, as Israeli citizens, they are in any way "hateful," it is as Israeli citizens, not as Jews, since you seem to admit that any hateful Norwegians would be hateful Norwegians, and not hateful Lutherans. Get it? Jew reflects a world-wide people that subscribe to a religion. Their religion is as much a non-sequitor as calling Americans, that might belong to a right-wing group, as hateful Catholics, or hateful Protestants. The religion is a non-sequitor. Regardless of your opinion, Jew is just a world-wide religion that denotes a people that identify with the ancient Hebrews, and their narrative. Israeli is a citizenship that might have issues with illegal immigrants in Israel. But, far be it for me to expect any Gentile to overcome two-millenia of historical brainwashing.

Will u explain the difference between Israeli and Israelite ?
In other words, Y was the spelling changed when Israel was
re-established in the 1940s (?) from what is was in the Bible??

David

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

It seems odd to me that thay have had so much trouble thru world history. gentile Europeans
Do u have any ideas as to the reason for those historical anti-Jewish problems?
To what shud their troubles be attributed ?

That's an easy one. It's attributable simply to the fact that throughout history the Jews living among gentile Europeans deviated in their customs and behaviour quite significantly from the cultural norms set by the dominant culture, i.e. Christian Europe. They were hated for no other reason than that they were different, not conforming to the folkways of the people among whom they dwelt.

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@Lustig Andrei,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

It seems odd to me that thay have had so much trouble thru world history. gentile Europeans
Do u have any ideas as to the reason for those historical anti-Jewish problems?
To what shud their troubles be attributed ?

Lustig Andrei wrote:

That's an easy one. It's attributable simply to the fact that throughout history the Jews living among gentile Europeans deviated in their customs and behaviour quite significantly from the cultural norms set by the dominant culture, i.e. Christian Europe. They were hated for no other reason than that they were different, not conforming to the folkways of the people among whom they dwelt.

Really?
I wonder if Foofie agrees.
In my observation of Jews in NY, especially in NY Mensa,
including my Jewish girlfriends who lived with me (seriatim),
Jews do not discernibly differ; indistinguishable in their conduct,
except regarding holidays from work. (I never took particular notice
of what anyone orders in restaurants.) The Jews whom I have in mind
made a particular point of identifying themselves as being Jewish
(some of them doing so several times) otherwise, I 'd not necessarily
have known whether or not thay were Jewish; my point is that
I have not found them to be as different in their folkways as u say.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

You're talking about 20th Century America, David. Anti-Semitism is not a major problem here today. I'm talking about the entire history of the Jewish diaspora, primarily in Europe. Also, I doubt that any of the Jews you befriended -- or who befriended you -- were of the Orthodox variety (which is the only kind of Jew that existed in the Middle Ages). I doubt that you'd interact quite as easily in a group of Chassidim.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

You're talking about 20th Century America, David. Anti-Semitism is not a major problem here today. I'm talking about the entire history of the Jewish diaspora, primarily in Europe. Also, I doubt that any of the Jews you befriended -- or who befriended you -- were of the Orthodox variety (which is the only kind of Jew that existed in the Middle Ages). I doubt that you'd interact quite as easily in a group of Chassidim.

I see what u mean. It did not occur to me
to ask them whether thay were Orthodox. My former law partner, Elliot,
was Jewish and he loved to discuss Jewish filosofy, but he did not mention
whether he was Orthodox or not; come to think of it,
he mentioned that there were some Jews who 'd reject him, he said,
as "not being Jewish." Maybe he meant the Orthodox Jews; I dunno.
U r probably correct; the Jews whom I had in mind did not dress in black.

Then again, I remember my friend Marty putting his Mensa SIG into a traditional
Jewish restaurant (I founded the Fine Dinning SIG, "the Opulent Mensan SIG,"
whereas he led the moderately priced SIG) where we had some black-dressed Jews
join us, and we had quite a good time discussing the Old Testament of the Bible
with their explanation of its original language; very friendly. One even did some research
about it for me and sent me a written report of his findings; interesting and friendly; very kind.

David

0 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

You're talking about 20th Century America, David. Anti-Semitism is not a major problem here today. I'm talking about the entire history of the Jewish diaspora, primarily in Europe.

As Americans you're quite happy to claim your European heritage when it suits you. Not when it comes to anti-Semitism, you like to think that anti-Semitism was something that mysteriously disappeared the minute your feet set foot on American soil. Not only that, but you refer to Europe as if it was one homogeneous entity, just like America, with a federal government. Europe is a collection of separate counties with separate laws, cultures and races.

Now I can't speak for Europe, but I can speak as a citizen of the United Kingdom. Our laws regarding freedom of religion, and an acceptance of Jews, date back to Oliver Cromwell, as do America's. I defy you to prove that America is less anti-Semitic than the UK. We even had a Jewish prime minister in Benjamin D'israeli. To date no Jewish presidents of the USA.

I accept D'israeli had to convert to C of E to take a seat in the House of Commons, but the point remains.

It could be argued that Hitler would never have become fuhrer had it not been for the generosity of Henry Ford, who donated incredible amounts of money to the Nazi party.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that Americans could be prejudiced towards Jews? Given your treatment of Africans, it's hardly a stretch of the imagination. And why is prejudice towards Jews so much worse than prejudice towards Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Indians or any other race?

This thread is about the dreadful persecution of African asylum seekers by the state of Israel, as can be evidenced by viewing the video the Cyracuz provided. You refuse to engage in that reality, instead you turn the question on its head and discuss anti-Semitism as if it's a uniquely European problem.

Why do you seem to think that it's alright to persecute African asylum seekers if the persecutors are Israeli?

5 Replies

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Lustig Andrei wrote:
You're talking about 20th Century America, David. Anti-Semitism is not a major problem here today. I'm talking about the entire history of the Jewish diaspora, primarily in Europe.

As Americans you're quite happy to claim your European heritage when it suits you. Not when it comes to anti-Semitism, you like to think that anti-Semitism was something that mysteriously disappeared the minute your feet set foot on American soil. Not only that, but you refer to Europe as if it was one homogeneous entity, just like America, with a federal government. Europe is a collection of separate counties with separate laws, cultures and races.

Slow down, old bean. You're making assumptions about me that are quite in error. I never said nor meant to imply that anti-Semitism "mysteriously disappeared" on the North American continent. I doubt that such anti-Semitism is any more -- or any less -- prevalent in the UK than the USA. Also, being a naturalized US citizen, born in Europe, I'm quite familiar with the political makeup of that part of the Eurasian continent and need no lecture from you on the absence of a federal government (although the European Union seems to think it can somehow achieve this miraculous transformation).

Quote:

Now I can't speak for Europe, but I can speak as a citizen of the United Kingdom. Our laws regarding freedom of religion, and an acceptance of Jews, date back to Oliver Cromwell, as do America's. I defy you to prove that America is less anti-Semitic than the UK. We even had a Jewish prime minister in Benjamin D'israeli. To date no Jewish presidents of the USA.

Please see above. You need not defy me to prove anything as I have never made any such claim regarding American prejudices compared with those of the UK. That we have never had a Jewish president is due, at least in part, to the fact that no Jewish politician has ever stood for (or, in American terms, run for) that office. (Back in the 1960s I had some opes for Senator Jacob Javitz of New York, even though he was a Republican. But he never indicated any interest in seeking the seat.)

Quote:

I accept D'israeli had to convert to C of E to take a seat in the House of Commons, but the point remains.

Yes, British chauvinism is far more legally ingrained than the American variety. No Jewish candidate for public office in the USA would ever be asked to make a hypocritical act of conversion to some State-sponsored religious dogma.

Quote:

It coud be argued that Hitler would never have become fuhrer had it not been for the generosity of Henry Ford, who donated incredible amounts of money to the Nazi party.

Nor was Henry Ford the onlyone. Any number of wealthy and famous Americans were sympathetic to the Nazi cause. Take Charles Lindberg, for one. Then again, your ex-king who abdicated the throne in order to marry a dowdy divorcee was known to be pretty chummy with the Nazi regime while living in exile abroad.

Quote:

Why do you find it so hard to accept that Americans could be prejudiced towards Jews? Given your treatment of Africans, it's hardly a stretch of the imagination. And why is prejudice towards Jews so much worse than prejudice towards Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Indians or any other race?

What, in the name of literacy and sanity, makes you think that I "find it hard to accept that Americans could be prejudiced toward Jews"? I have never made such a statement. I have known a number of people who dislike Jews and whom I would describe as anti-Semites. All Americans. I assume you have a fair amount of reading comprehension which makes me wonder at that statement/query. I said in post to OmSigDAVID that anti-Semitism is not a major problem in America these days. That's a country mile from inferring that, therefore, there is no anti-Semitism here. Likewise, I fail to grasp the meaning of the last sentence above. I don't recall anyone saying that prejudice against Jews is "so much worse" than prejudice towards any other group. I certainly have never made any such claims.

Quote:

This thread is about the dreadful persecution of African asylum seekers by the stat[/qyoe of Israel, as can be evidenced by viewing the video the Cyracuz provided. You refuse to engage in that reality, instead you turn the question on its head and discuss anti-Semitism as if it's a uniquely European problem.[/quote]

Wrong again. What I was doing was answering OmSigDAVID's question, which had been addressed to Foofie, regarding the reasons for so much hate against the Jews. Re-read that correspondence and you'll see how wrong you are in your assertions. The only reason Europe was even mentioned was because DAVID was describing his American experience and I was trying to point out that anti-Semitism today cannot be compared to its origins in the Europe of the Dark Ages and beyond.

Quote:
Why do you seem to think that it's alright to persecute African asylum seekers if the persecutors are Israeli?

Again, a perfect straw man of an argument. Next are you going to ask me if I've stopped beating my wife yet? Where in the hell do you see me implying, even obliquely, that it's "all right to persecute African asylum seeers." I don't believe I've even addressed that issue anywhere on this thread.

Get a grip on yourself, pal.

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

You're talking about 20th Century America, David.
Anti-Semitism is not a major problem here today.
I'm talking about the entire history of the Jewish diaspora, primarily in Europe.

izzythepush wrote:

As Americans you're quite happy to claim your European heritage when it suits you.
Not when it comes to anti-Semitism, you like to think that anti-Semitism
was something that mysteriously disappeared the minute your feet set foot on American soil.

In regard to anti-Semitism:
I am not anti-Jewish, but since 9/11/1,
I have resented the Arabs and other Moslems and borne them ill will.
I 'm under the impression that Arabs r Semites.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I have always thought that Semitic people pretty much meant Jewish people. But upon googling "semitic people" after reading your post I discovered that it seems you are right.

From wiki:
"The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in the Near East, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites, Palmyrans and Ethiopian Semites".

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

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@izzythepush,

In my years of observation, there has been plenty of antisemitism in the US, which Lustig is not disagreeing with. I understand anti semite is oft taken as directed to jews (it is, oft) but it is also directed to other semites in some people's minds. I don't like titles saying any heritage group is hateful, thus my whining about it.

On my not looking at the video, I was disinclined to try since I can only see videos something like 1 out of 25 times, if that, probably more. I just checked and no, I can't see it, I need adobe flash. I have had that announced to me something like a thousand times on news pages, sports pages, a2k pages: I need a more up to date computer (she says yet again) to upgrade my adobe, but also was disinclined to even try since the title annoyed me.

On african jews treated badly in Israel, of course I am sympathetic to them. I think I have heard of that before this thread, maybe years before. It feels like at least five years. An earlier assumption by you that white americans wouldn't care about black jews is an off the mark insult. Perhaps some don't care, and some jews can be hateful, but the blanket takes on groups is just stupid.

All in all, these days long away from the time I was first all gungho for Israel, I am caring about the Palestinians with much more immediacy than for Israelis, but I have some understanding of both sides.

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I find it odd that Israel wants to portray itself as a Jewish State n different from other countries without that being associated with pure plain racism.
That being said I am of the open opinion racism is natural and justified to an extent. Its not a matter of superiority or inferiority but a mater of difference and the right to preserve it if people wish it so. That explained it needs clarifying I am against all violent forms of racism or racism that assumes superiority instead of differentiation. Personally my experience with regions of Portugal that have Jewish descendants as a majority is not the best, I dislike them in the stereotype they seam to provide about themselves generally speaking but I believe there are of course exceptions.
Mostly n this is bloody accurate, (I've analysed as fairly as I could) they are gamble zero get hundred risk averse profited oriented people closed on themselves. Damn coincidence or not I started with the opposite opinion n little by little my experience as lead me to concede I was wrong.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Alright Andy, point taken, but appearances can be deceptive. I've had Foofie bend my ear on how Terrible Europe is compared to America so I thought you might be echoing that description.

The point still remains that instead of discussing the points ranged in the film, most people wish to jump on Cyracuz' rather clumsy choice of words. That does give the impression that some posters value (predominantly white) Israeli lives over those of Africans.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

Yes, British chauvinism is far more legally ingrained than the American variety. No Jewish candidate for public office in the USA would ever be asked to make a hypocritical act of conversion to some State-sponsored religious dogma.

That's not the case today, you can believe or not believe anything you want and still be an MP.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I wrote a long thread response, edited it a few times, and apparently did not click on submit.

So, summary -

- I don't like slamming people's heritage as a generalization starting with the word hateful.
I didn't watch the video because I can't with my computer, it is too old a Mac, and I didn't want to anyway at least right away - not because I don't care about african jews (I have known about them in israel for a while now).

- I didn't get much further in the thread because I was pissed off.
Part of why I got pissed off was that you flew off on white americans not being able to sympathize with black jews from africa. Don't get me started on that. Perhaps some feel that way. Get that? Some jews, some white americans, some conservatives, some liberals, and so on.
You don't know me at all if you think that of me, and I had thought you did.

- I've long known the word semitic refers to a common descent of people of different tongues with some similar heritage, hebrew, arabic, and I gather other.
I mostly hear 'anti semitic' as about being against jews, but know it's a wider brush sometimes.
I'll add, meant humorously, but also true, that I was raised in an irish jewish enclave - known as Hollywood, in the early days.

- on the troubles, I've moved from originally entirely gungho for Israel, now many years ago, to despairing about israeli behavior some big part of the time, and a mix of understanding and admiration for palestinian survival, with qualms. It's a given with me that I don't like weapons shot back and forth, so I get irritated with the elements of both that keep it going - but starting with Israel and the settlements.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I have always thought that Semitic people pretty much meant Jewish people. But upon googling "semitic people" after reading your post I discovered that it seems you are right.

From wiki:
"The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in the Near East, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites, Palmyrans and Ethiopian Semites".

Quite right and I knew that. But in common everyday English usage the expression anti-Semitic is almost always meant to refer to anti-Jewish. I've never heard an Arab-hater described as an anti-Semite.

1 Reply

Fil Albuquerque, I want to respond to you but not right now. I think you are buying into an insidious framing of how groups survive given the little they are let to do, by becoming good at it.

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@ossobuco,

I just vote you up not because I agree or disagree but because of what you said was never worth being voted down in the first place. I don't need people backing up my opinions by voting down fair concern.

My opinion on Jews is admittedly a gross generalization, a personnel impression, and might very well be totally unfair and unjustified...I just was honest enough to not hide I have it to some extent.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Well, we'll talk, maybe not here, since this is about the african jews. I'm am taking them as mostly ethiopian but don't know. I've known a few ethiopians from dinners at an international student place (we were all adults, one or two of the people were grad students), but know an eritrean much better (fellow worker for years). But he was coptic - we never got into religion since his family had other concerns, brothers and sisters with no school with the endless war.

I come from the side of once being very catholic and learning in later reading that a pope started the first ghetto as such. I just skimmed this wiki entry, but I don't see it. I remember it as Pius III who did the deed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Ghetto

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@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

But in common everyday English usage the expression anti-Semitic is almost always meant to refer to anti-Jewish.

You better not let McTag know that. He doesn't like people fooling around with the language.

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