Kerry's Doomed Mideast Plan

So you countered one historical absurdity by another... Sounds like a ME peace talk.

You are soaked with ideology too, Observer. Only you don't realise it. Like your idea that Israelis don't want the West Bank... What the heck have they been doing there for half a century, settling it like crazy, if they don't want to stay? Why annex the Golan if they don't want to stay there either? So that is a non-factual, purely ideological point. IOW it's just fvckin' hasbara. And bad hasbara too.

Or the idea that Palestinians should not meet an invading army and settlers with resistance. That's pretty absurd.

So lead by example: try and adopt a rational outlook on this issue.

"You are soaked with ideology too,"
No. I have no illusions, unlike the hard-core Palestinian activists.

"Like your idea that Israelis don't want the West Bank... What the heck have they been doing there for half a century, settling it like crazy, if they don't want to stay? "
Sure, they would want it if it was empty. But they don't want it with the millions of Palestinians there. And they know that Palestinians are not going anywhere. Most Palestinians know Israel is not going anywhere - but far from all of them. A large portion still dreams of no Israel at all - read the PLO charter, let alone Hamas et al.

Just look at official polls if you don't believe me:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx

"Why annex the Golan if they don't want to stay there either?"

That's even easier to answer - because before they were on the Golan, the Syrians constantly bombarded the Hula valley for many years for no good reason.

Wikipedia:
"In the period between the first Arab-Israeli War and the Six Day War, the Syrians constantly harassed Israeli border communities by firing artillery shells from their dominant positions on the Golan Heights.[75][76] In October 1966 Israel brought the matter up before the United Nations. Five nations sponsored a resolution criticizing Syria for its actions but it failed to pass due to a Soviet veto"

Now they are not bombarding it any more. The Golan heights are not that populated - most of them are basically mine fields.

"So that is a non-factual, purely ideological point."

Not at all. I talk to Israelis constantly (Jews and Arabs). I'm not talking based on propaganda like many others. BTW, I also talk to Palestinians. What's funny, is that Palestinians are much more pragmatic than some of pro-Palestinian activists away from that region. Probably because they have to live there and actually care about their future , unlike Western activists who just need a cool thing to protest about.

"And bad hasbara too." - cool that you learned one Hebrew word.

"Or the idea that Palestinians should not meet an invading army and settlers with resistance. That's pretty absurd. "

Why didn't they resist Jordan when it invaded them?
To remind you, if you're forgetting, they were invaded in 1967 in response to a war that Arabs started with the goal of eliminating Israel. You know that, right? If they didn't start that 1967 war - there would be no occupation today. If they had accepted the 1947 partition plan, they would have had even more land now.

Now, I am aware of the fact that the settlers are taking advantage of that occupation. I am very much against that. And so is the majority of Israelis - just talk to them if you don't believe me. But don't talk to the Palestinians to find out what the Israelis think - that's absurd.

"So lead by example: try and adopt a rational outlook on this issue."

That's what I'm trying to do

It should be noted that Israel has done nothing wrong. They are not at fault for anything at all.

Most of the "children" that Israel "kills" are entirely fictitious.

The small handful of children who are actually killed by Israel, are collateral damage from Israel's desperate defense against Palestinian aggression. Those deaths are unfortunate, but they are not in any way wrong or illegal.

Technically, you are right. However it descended into being about you with your awkward answers regarding certain questions, your lack of insight, that the reasons the Palestinians are behaving the way they are is simply because Israel is trying to steal Palestinian land. What would you do If Israel wanted to take your land? Give it to them without a fight? Or are you a Fundamentalist ultra-right-wing religion individual? There are a significant number of fundies in the south who think that Israel has every right in the world and the rest of us should merely kowtow.

Sorry, I don't kiss ass*es.

And no, Mysteryman, it's never OK to kill each other and especially innocent humans, but this is reality...we are who we are. Humans have been engaged in battling each other since the beginning. People retaliate when pushed to extremes.

Observer, you appear to be one of those posters with an endless bottom who will keep going on and on and on. I participated in a response thread with you yesterday and it took up a considerable amount of my time. I resent giving that amount of time to any poster but especially one who is in denial and will repeat himself endlessly. Get another poster to get into a prolonged argument. I'm not your future correspondent partner. I will probably contribute to others' answers to you.

Enjoy.....and my Best

I've already answered that. Out of all the posts on this thread you just picked on mine. Why are you making this about me?

I never defended using suicide bombs. I do though, understand the desperation that forces people to take their own lives. I sympathise for the oppressor not the oppressed.

As every adult of a certain age is in the IDF there are very few "innocent" Israelis.



That was like pulling teeth.

As I said, many Israelis hope that the Palestinians will "go somewhere". That's why they allow often them to leave (eg to study abroad) but not to come back... and they could use much more aggressive means to that end if the context allows them.


Really? You need an answer to this question? That's not disingenuous? I'd rather think you're terminally infected by bad faith.

For the record, the answer is: because the Jordanian did not try to dispossess them and settle their land with foreigners. They did not COLONIZE the West Bank!

Call me when you decided to have a genuine discussion rather than the usual hate fest.

I think you know that the UK happily joined in with the USA in the slaughter of a couple hundred thousand Iraqis.

Far from it. The vast majority of the population were against it. There were marches that broke all records. Blair betrayed the people when he did America's bidding. That's why Cameron is finding it so difficult to get a vote through the commons.

Then how come parliament didn't buck Blair like it is bucking Cameron?

I would agree that our invasion, etc., in Iraq is beyond shameful.

They believed the bullshit peddled by Bush/Blair and Murdoch.

Bush and Cheney are oilmen, who were after Iraq's oil. They had maps prepared before the invasion showing the country's oil resources divided up among the US oil companies.

Let me get this straight, if someone comments on your post, they are making the discussion about you.
UNLESS, they comment on other posts also, is that your story?
If that's the case, then you had better reread this thread. There are 2 comments from me on the first page alone, and in one of them I was responding to someone else.
So, using your criteria, you are still wrong.

Its true. They were either Roman citizens or Egyptian citizens. It would be like calling me Italian because my ancestors were from Italy even though I live in the U S of A. We are all of either African or Chinese ancestors. I dont think our scientists have quite decided yet.

Give the IDF credit. They will kill anybody as long as their not Isralie.

I have a question for all of you that are blaming Israel for everything.
IF Israel agrees to retreat to the 1967 borders, would you support Israel carrying out a scorched earth program?

Should Israel be allowed to destroy everything they built when they retreat?
Every building, every road, every water pipeline, gas line, electric line, phone system, everything?

Since Israel built it, if they retreat, why should anyone else be able to prosper?
Shouldn't whoever moves into those areas be forced to start from scratch, like the Israeli's were?

wait, so you think maybe we should support Israel taxing the Palestinians and controlling how that money is spent without regard to Palestinian wishes.......and then should blow it all up if they allow Palestinians their freedom?

I cant think of a single good reason to support that.