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The moral differences between the holocaust and bombing Japan

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Aug, 2013 10:01 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Oh so we have rules and guide lines that you think we should follow? What do you think about our enemies rules and guidelines?

If enemies do not follow internationally accepted rules and guidelines for the conduct of warfare, when those enemies are captured, instead of being detained as a POW and then set free at the end of the war, they are tried for war crimes and then executed.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Aug, 2013 10:20 pm
I'll say it again, given the history, I do not fault Truman or other US leaders for what happened.

Nonetheless I'd have tried something else for about a month and I'd not have waited until August to do it. The big firebomb raids were worse than the two atom bombs and everybody in Japan knew it. Three or four of those things should have allowed us to end the war on terms no worse than we actually got, if the case were made to the Japanese properly.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Aug, 2013 11:12 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:
My point is that those injured in firebombings were casualties of war.

So were those who received radiation injuries from nuclear explosions.


igm wrote:
Those who were born after the war ended in Japan and died of radiation poisoning were casualties in peacetime.

Nonsense. They received their injury during the war. The fact that they were a fetus at the time does not change the reality that this is when they were injured.


igm wrote:
The holocaust is morally indefensible. The atomic bombs dropped on Japan are indefensible if there was an alternative... the question is was there?

That's a meaningless question. Could we have held off the A-bombs and attacked by other means, yes.

But those other means would also have caused harm. That's what weapons do. They cause harm.

To act like there is any sort of moral significance to "choosing one sort of harm over another" is silly.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Aug, 2013 11:39 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
If you think that any type of bomb used is a moral bomb you have a serious problem.

Whether any bomb is moral or not comes from the circumstances under which it is used.

We used the A-bombs as part of a just war of self defense.


reasoning logic wrote:
The problem should have been dealt with differently.

There was no way to deal with the problem other than to attack Japan until they surrendered.


reasoning logic wrote:
When we take a war to someone else's homeland instead of defending the areas that we hold as important then we seem to be crossing a line in my opinion.

But in the real world sometimes that's the only way to make the enemy surrender.


reasoning logic wrote:
We ran them out of the areas they were in or we could have if we didn't.

And yet they refused to surrender.


reasoning logic wrote:
We took away their fuel supply and they were starting to starve, would that not have ended the war eventually?

Is your complaint that you wish that MORE civilians had been killed?

Historians have estimated that if the war had continued just a couple of months longer, our ever-tightening blockade would have resulted in ten million Japanese civilians starving to death.

And roughly 200,000 civilians were dying every month in Japanese-occupied Asia.

But in any case, having the war drag on indefinitely would have been intolerable. It was long past time to wrap it up. Even if starving tens of millions of civilians to death would have worked, we were not about to let the war drag on for years longer.


reasoning logic wrote:
What makes so certain that we had to fire bomb the civilians and then use a bombs?

What's this "firebomb civilians" nonsense? The incendiary raids were targeting Japan's war industry.

And what makes it certain is: Japan's refusal to surrender.


reasoning logic wrote:
Could it be because we wanted to dominate them?

It was because we needed them to surrender.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 12:06 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
izzythepush wrote:
but the fact is the Palestinians are an oppressed people enduring a brutal occupation....

Bullshit like that is why people call you Izzy-the Poop, Poop.

Izzythepush is just an embittered anti-Semite who is frustrated that peace talks have resumed. He doesn't care about Palestinians as much as he cares about trying to harm Jews.

The more it looks like peace talks might succeed and the Palestinians get their own state, the more whiny and bitter izzythepush will become.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 12:27 am
@oralloy,
Those savages don't need a "state" and I don't picture anybody "giving" them one any time soon. That would be like giving a concert piano to a bunch of baboons.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 12:53 am
I see the inbreds are having a love-in. It's like Deliverance all over again.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 01:10 am
@JTT,
Quote:
globalresearch.ca

Let's start here. That is a highly dishonorable website that has never once hosted anything that is even remotely truthful.


Quote:
The sudden end of the war precipitated by the two atomic bombs, and subsequent secrecy on the part of the United States, disguised for many years the fact that the US had prepared a remarkable back-up plan. This was the mass-production of enormous quantities of chemical weapons to be used against Japanese cities, that envisaged killing as many as 5 million people.

Our chemical weapons division prepared a variety of possible plans. The fact that these options included a large-scale "all out attack" does not mean that there was any inclination by the government to carry out that particular plan.

Barack Obama has a plan to fire more than a thousand thermonuclear warheads into Russia at a moment's notice. I don't think anyone expects him to carry out that plan.


Quote:
The intention was to maximise casualties, mostly civilian, and the study stated:
“The Gas Attack Program is aimed primarily at causing the maximum number of casualties, crippling transportation and public services, complicating and delaying the repair of HE [high explosive] bomb damage and making targets more vulnerable to incendiary attack.”

Nonsense. It says nothing about maximizing civilian casualties.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 02:04 am
@oralloy,
JTT wrote:
Setanta wrote:
I have repeatedly pointed out that the United States used the atomic bomb because the Japanese would not surrender, and they needed to end that war, they wanted to end the madness.

That's not a lawful excuse to resort to war crimes. It is also a lie, but lies comes easy to a people who have lived horrible lies for their entire existence.
oralloy wrote:
No, his statement is entirely factual.

As for legality, we did what needed to be done.
Was some LAW violated ??
If so, then WHICH law??

What is the authority for the alleged "law" ????
America is sovereign. It was sovereign then.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 02:39 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
I'll say it again, given the history, I do not fault Truman or other US leaders for what happened.

Nonetheless I'd have tried something else for about a month and I'd not have waited until August to do it. The big firebomb raids were worse than the two atom bombs and everybody in Japan knew it. Three or four of those things should have allowed us to end the war on terms no worse than we actually got, if the case were made to the Japanese properly.
The goal had to be maximum curtailment of AMERICAN casualties, with no concern for the Japs,
in order to avoid the bane of treason.





David
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:03 am
@JTT,
Quote:
On August 14, 1945, Japan surrendered and World War II was over. American policy makers have argued that the atomic bombs were the precipitating cause of the surrender. Historical studies of the Japanese decision, however, reveal that what the Japanese were most concerned with was the Soviet Union’s entry into the war.

Nonsense. Historical studies of the Japanese decision show that they were most concerned about the fact that they had no ability to prevent us from invading and occupying them.


Quote:
Japan surrendered with the understanding that the emperor system would be retained. The US agreed to do what Truman had been advised to do before the bombings: it signaled to the Japanese that they would be allowed to retain the emperor.

While technically true, those statements leave so much truth out that they have to be regarded as falsehoods.

Japan was not willing to surrender, under any conditions whatsoever, until the day after Nagasaki.

Once they were finally willing to surrender, they requested to surrender with the condition that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power as Japan's living deity.

We replied by telling them that Hirohito was going to be subordinate to MacArthur.

Could Japan have deduced from that that we intended to keep Hirohito as a powerless figurehead? Probably. But the nuances of the exchange are quite different from what the article makes it sound like.


As for "advice to Truman", some people did advise him that Japan might be more likely to surrender if we promised to retain Hirohito's dynasty as part of a Constitutional monarchy (note: a promise that would have given us the right to depose Hirohito in favor of his son).

Others advised that giving Japan such a promise would make surrender less likely.

The decision to "wait until Japan broached the subject" wasn't too significant. Japan was not willing to surrender at all until after the second A-bomb. And then they broached the subject immediately.


Quote:
This has left historians to speculate that the war could have ended without either the use of the two atomic weapons on Japanese cities or an Allied invasion of Japan.

It was Japan who decided to wait until they were nuked before they surrendered.


Quote:
The US Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that, even without the use of the atomic bombs, without the Soviet Union entering the war and without an Allied invasion of Japan, the war would have ended before December 31, 1945 and, in all likelihood, before November 1, 1945.

The US Strategic Bombing Survey was conducted well after the war, with knowledge of hindsight that was not available during the war.

It also had a sizable axe to grind. The entire point of it was to claim that conventional air power alone was responsible for winning the war, so post-war defense spending should emphasize the Air Force over the other services.


Quote:
The US dropped atomic bombs on a nation that had been largely defeated and some of whose leaders were seeking terms of surrender.

Japan's leaders did not seek the terms of surrender, because they already knew them. That's what the Potsdam Proclamation was.

If Japan was already defeated, it was their own fault for not surrendering.


Quote:
Many World War II era servicemen who were in the Pacific or anticipated being shipped there believed that the bombs saved them from fighting hard battles on the shores of Japan, as had been fought on the islands of Iwo Jima and Okinawa. What they did not take into account was that the Japanese were trying to surrender, that the US had broken the Japanese codes and knew they were trying to surrender, and that, had the US accepted their offer, the war could have ended without the use of the atomic bombs.

The article just shifted gears from "devious half-truths" to "outright lies".

Japan did not make any attempt to surrender until after Nagasaki.


Quote:
Most high ranking Allied military leaders were appalled by the use of the atomic bombs.

No. Only one high-ranking military leader was appalled: Ike. And no one gave him much credence on the matter.


Quote:
General Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces Europe, recognized that Japan was ready to surrender

True, but he was the only one who thought that.

Further, he told only one person: Secretary of War Stimson.

Further yet, he only told Stimson shortly before the bombings, when it would have been too late to halt them even if he'd been convincing.

And finally, he was not at all convincing. Stimson told him he didn't know what he was talking about, and that was the end of the discussion.

But if Japan was ready to surrender, they should have surrendered instead of waiting until we had nuked them twice.


Quote:
General Hap Arnold, commander of the US Army Air Corps pointed out, “Atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”

Amazing what you can make it look like when you selectively take a few words out of a quote.

"It always appeared to us that atomic bomb or no atomic bomb the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse. Nevertheless, the abrupt surrender of Japan came more or less as a surprise, for we had figured we would probably have to drop about four atomic bombs or increase the destructiveness of our B-29 missions by adding heavy bombers from Europe."


Quote:
Admiral William Leahy, Truman’s chief of staff, put it this way: “The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. In being the first to use it, we adopted an ethical standard common to barbarians of the Dark Ages. Wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

Leahy "put it that way" many years after the war was over, with the benefit of hindsight that was not available to Truman when the war was still raging, and with a huge axe to grind (he was arguing that naval sea power won the war alone, so post-war defense spending should emphasize the Navy over the other services).

The only thing Leahy had to say about the bombs before they were used is: "I'm an expert in bombs, and I assure you these contraptions will never work."


Quote:
What Truman had described as “the greatest thing in history” was actually, according to his own military leaders, an act of unparalleled cowardice,

Nonsense.


Quote:
The use of the atomic bombs was the culmination of an air war fought against civilians in Germany and Japan,

The US air war never targeted civilians.


Quote:
Szilard did his utmost to prevent the bomb from being used against Japanese civilians.

A lie. Szilard's concerns had nothing to do with fear of targeting civilians.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:08 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
But if Japan was ready to surrender,
they should have surrendered instead of waiting until we had nuked them twice.
Oralloy summarizes the whole issue very succinctly and successfully.





David
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 05:34 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

To act like there is any sort of moral significance to "choosing one sort of harm over another" is silly.


I can think of many examples where what you've said above isn't true... I'm sure you can also.

izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 05:37 am
@igm,
igm wrote:
I can think of many examples where what you've said above isn't true... I'm sure you can also.




You don't know Oralboy, thinking gives him a headache.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 05:48 am
What might the future hold after the nuclear strike on Japan? It could eventually lead to state sponsored terrorism successfully detonating a nuclear device on the US homeland with no chance of retaliation... so we have a useless deterrent... no country to bomb... just a terrorist cell which can't be nuked... or even destroyed conventionally because they just keep on recruiting.

The world rethought their tactics after the arms race era... all caused by the first strike on Japan.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 07:34 am
@oralloy,
Oralboy's continued lying. You're just regurgitating the propaganda you've heard and read your during your "life".
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 07:45 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Oralloy summarizes the whole issue very succinctly and successfully.


I take it that you two did not read JTT's long winded reply that explains the setting and the mind set of our leaders in charge of this war?
I do not remember all of what he shared but what he shared exposed their way of thinking.
Here is my version of it. Our society consisted of many racist white men who did not enforce the 15th amendment for blacks until after 1960
These same old farts "that you old farts look up to, thought segregation was normal and were still pissed about what took place a few years earlier "19th amendment" many men thought woman should not be allowed to vote.

Was there Free speech? What free speech? You better not speak out against the brain washing or you might have a price to pay?

Do you all really love them good old days so much that you can not see what a bunch of immoral apes we were.

The best thing you could do is to read what JTT shared because I did not do it justice.

"Apes with an atom bomb" I wonder whats next.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 08:17 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
I'll say it again, given the history, I do not fault Truman or other US leaders for what happened.

Nonetheless I'd have tried something else for about a month and I'd not have waited until August to do it. The big firebomb raids were worse than the two atom bombs and everybody in Japan knew it. Three or four of those things should have allowed us to end the war on terms no worse than we actually got, if the case were made to the Japanese properly.

The goal had to be maximum curtailment of AMERICAN casualties, with no concern for the Japs, in order to avoid the bane of treason.



Japan had already been defeated after the first two or three major firebomb attacks. The problem and question was leaving Stalinist regimes on the Pacific rim. Truman actually went over there and actively recruited Soviet aid in finishing off Japan, which I'd view as an overwhelming mistake. He needed to tell them that Japan was already defeated, and that enough Russians had already died. The Japanese could probably have been talked into surrendering at that point.

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 08:19 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
I am talking about "resentment" of those that are perceived to have something one does not have. Jews collectively do not resent anyone for having more than them. If you know any Jews, it is more likely that Jews just admire those that have more than them, and use those "haves" as a role-model.


Do you think that there are no have-not gentiles that use the same philosophy
to better themselves?


Converse with someone else. Your points can be valid; however, of no interest to my discussion with you.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Aug, 2013 08:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Foofie…in another forum where I participate, I had a Jewish physician say, “Jews have never done anything wrong to anyone.”

I challenged her on that…and it caused quite a heated argument. I think by the end of the argument, the challenge that I made to that absurd characterization prevailed.

Here, you wrote:

Quote:
Jews collectively do not resent anyone for having more than them. If you know any Jews, it is more likely that Jews just admire those that have more than them, and use those "haves" as a role-model. No resentment from Jews, for all intensive purposes.


You are in effect suggesting that Jews, collectively, are much more possessed of the traits that short-circuit a natural human response like “resentment” than are non-Jews.

Do you stand by that suggestion?



Collectively they are, in my opinion. Because having learned how to survive as a minority, perhaps better than other minorities, due to their long learning curve as a minority, they understand they are not going to be top dog, and therefore it is more appropriate to just learn from those that play by the rules of the respective society. So, they became adept at capitalism in a capitalist society, and became adept at communism in a communist society. But, let's not belabor Jews. This thread is based on a premise that is fallacious, in my opinion, since the Jews in the Holocaust were just victims, while the Japanese throughout WWII were aggressors.

Plus, the purpose of the Holocaust was to perform genocide, while the purpose of the bombing of Japan was just to make the Japanese surrender. Apples and oranges.

But, you can split hairs with someone else, since I have no reason to believe you are of my mindset. And, much of the canards against Jews has been accepted by many an otherwise rational person. So, I really do not know you, nor want to.
 

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