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What are your pet peeves re English usage?

 
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:25 am
McTag wrote:
This reminds me of a joke.


Good. :wink: We aim to amuse.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:31 am
lesviolettes wrote:
Hi, JTT!
I'm not talking about the natives'use/or not use of grammar -, I'm talking about the non-natives - I wasn't there when the thread started, sorry, I may not have done my homework...
To me the appellation of "intuitive grammar" clearly refers to one's personal instinct, not to whatever's been written previously.
I do think anybody needs some sound basis before venturing onto intuitive fields.


Intuitive obviously doesn't apply to non-natives speakers, lesviolettes.
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lesviolettes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:31 am
any other words?
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lesviolettes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:32 am
Why shouldn't it?
Once a non native gets the hang of the language, why shouldn't s/he try to get intuitive?
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:47 am
lesviolettes wrote:
Why shouldn't it?
Once a non native gets the hang of the language, why shouldn't s/he try to get intuitive?


You misunderstand the concept, LV. An adult second language learner can never acquire the intuitive grammar that a native child possesses.
0 Replies
 
lesviolettes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:56 am
I think once an ASLL is well settled in his/her non native background, after some time, s/he can acquire some intuitive grammar feel.
But before they will need some sound fixed stuctures of the language.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 02:16 pm
Very few grammar classes are held for infants or toddlers and the majority of infants and toddlers acquire both vocabulary and grammatical rules of their subculture.

For example, double negatives are frowned upon in formal English but they are acceptable in some circles. A speaker might announce, "I ain't got none" or "I don't have any" but would probably not say "I ain't got any of them".

I may be on thin ice with my examples.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 02:53 pm
Noddy, If I recall correctly, it seems many of our exams in college were phrased with double-negatives. Wink
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sylvie b
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 03:24 pm
salut les filles, salut les mecs!!! Smile c'est fou ce que vous parlez bien français!! c'est vraiment génial, je me sens vraiment chez moi!!!

gros bisouxxx à tous Smile
sylvie b
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 03:24 pm
C.I--

Aren't you a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 03:27 pm
sylvie b wrote:
salut les filles, salut les mecs!!! Smile c'est fou ce que vous parlez bien français!! c'est vraiment génial, je me sens vraiment chez moi!!!

gros bisouxxx à tous Smile
sylvie b


A bon, encore des bisous . . . elle est sympa, cette Sylvie . . .
0 Replies
 
Clary
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 03:52 pm
oh oui, elle est géniale comme tout

gros bisous à tous de ma part
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 04:23 pm
sylvie b wrote:
salut les filles, salut les mecs!!! Smile c'est fou ce que vous parlez bien français!! c'est vraiment génial, je me sens vraiment chez moi!!!

gros bisouxxx à tous Smile
sylvie b


Je suis ecossais, et malheureusement parle francais tres mal. Salut. McT
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 06:14 pm
Aussi longtemps que nous envoyons des baisers... M'aussi!

Mais je ne sais pas de français, Sylvie. ... est la courtoisie de FreeTranslation. Cool
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 06:31 pm
Gee, must've run into the wrong chat room. These people are talking in some strange language. Wink
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 09:09 pm
Noddy24 wrote:
Very few grammar classes are held for infants or toddlers and the majority of infants and toddlers acquire both vocabulary and grammatical rules of their subculture.


So true Noddy, and the ease with which they acquire something so complex is astounding.

That, in itself, tells us what the real rules are. A good example. Teachers try to "teach" children how to properly use 'may' for permission. To do this they lie, telling children they can't use 'can' for permission, that it has another meaning. Children know intuitively that this is false and they ignore this 'rule' as do all the teachers who teach it.


For example, double negatives are frowned upon in formal English but they are acceptable in some circles. A speaker might announce, "I ain't got none" or "I don't have any" but would probably not say "I ain't got any of them".

Google gave us "18 English pages for "I ain't got any of them"." I suspect it's used more than you might suspect but, as you correctly note, it's not used in standard English.

I may be on thin ice with my examples.

But the speed and deftness with which you move keeps you high and dry, Noddy. Smile Your examples were fine.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:54 pm
lesviolettes wrote:
I think once an ASLL is well settled in his/her non native background, after some time, s/he can acquire some intuitive grammar feel.
But before they will need some sound fixed stuctures of the language.


You're right on both counts, LV. The operative words are 'some' and 'sound'.

An ESL/EFL can actually become really quite an expert, some even close to native speaker level. But if they do so as adults, ie. learn the second language as adults, they can never acquire the intuitive nature that an ENL child possesses.

Quote:
S Pinker- The Language Instinct [at page 19]

A preschooler's tacit knowledge of grammar is more sophisticated than the thickest style manual or the most state-of the-art computer language system, and the same applies to all healthy human beings, even the notorious syntax-fracturing professional athlete and the, you know, like inarticulate teenage skateboarder.


We have proof of this right here at A2K. Most people, a good example is Setanta, know virtually nothing of how language works, yet they deploy language very effectively.

With respect to your "sound structures" point, prescriptive rules are not accurate portrayals of English structure so they can't be described as sound.
0 Replies
 
lesviolettes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 02:32 am
I do not think it is very nice to assert that "most people, a good example is S., know virtually nothing of how language works", JTT.
As it is, I'd much rather not know how it works and use it, as you said, effectively. Maybe I could show some inventiveness...
0 Replies
 
lesviolettes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 02:33 am
I do not think it is very nice to assert that "most people, a good example is S., know virtually nothing of how language works", JTT.
As it is, I'd much rather not know how it works and use it, as you said, effectively. Maybe I could show some inventiveness, then...
0 Replies
 
Clary
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 02:50 am
I also think one can develop an instinct for a second language. I speak relatively well, and can pinpoint things that sound 'unFrench' even though I may not know exactly what should be said. Instinct is only knowledge that has been assimilated into the unconscious mind, after all
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