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What are your pet peeves re English usage?

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 02:42 am
Mame wrote:
Hey, no problem, McT :wink: Everywhere I've been in Europe, people call us Americans, even after we say we're from Canada Smile


I can tell the difference. It was inattention to detail on my part, that's all.

I'm a Scot, by the way, and it's a similar situation over here.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 03:17 am
Yes, I know about the Scots - I am one, after all (a Pict, if my husband is correct), plus my daughter and SIL lived in Edinburgh for a year and we got to know them a bit.

Ever read the M.C. Beaton mysteries about Hamish Macbeth? Smile
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 03:22 am
No, but there was a series on TV of that name, probably an adaptation.
Very popular at the time.
It was filmed at Plockton in Wester Ross, a place I know well.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 03:24 am
BTW what's a SIL?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 04:32 am
McTag wrote:
BTW what's a SIL?


Internet shorthand for Sister In Law.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 07:00 am
Merry Andrew wrote:
McTag wrote:
BTW what's a SIL?


Internet shorthand for Sister In Law.


Ah

Thank you



I was hoping it wasn't Significant (Other) Indolent Layabout.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 09:00 am
Or, in Mame's case... she may have meant SON -in-law.

Mame, we've always said my dad was a Pict. Short, dark, hairy, extremely smart, jovial & hot-tempered, covered in tattoos.... and a 4th G. Scottish-American.










(okay, I'm lying about the tattoos)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 12:56 pm
I just post it here, because I find it both interesting and related.


An opinion in todays Moscow Times, copied/pasted from page 11:

Quote:
Forget the Queen's English
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 04:41 pm
I think that's a good article, Walter.

Thanks for posting it.

Sorry I've no peeves today. Sad
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 05:11 pm
Piffka wrote:
Or, in Mame's case... she may have meant SON -in-law.

Mame, we've always said my dad was a Pict. Short, dark, hairy, extremely smart, jovial & hot-tempered, covered in tattoos.... and a 4th G. Scottish-American.


(okay, I'm lying about the tattoos)


Sounds rather like me, except for the hairy, tattoo and extremely smart bits Smile
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 09:47 pm
McTag wrote:
I think that's a good article, Walter.

Thanks for posting it.

Sorry I've no peeves today. Sad


Yes, great stuff, Walter. Brunnen getan!

Did I, or should I say, did they [Bablefish] get it right?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 12:05 am
JTT wrote:
Yes, great stuff, Walter. Brunnen getan!

Did I, or should I say, did they [Bablefish] get it right?


Laughing

I had to use babelfish to get the meaning - it works wrong the other way the same :wink:

(Here "gut gemacht" would be the right translation; Brunnen would be a font, fountain, spring ... well

The first story in my first English book started with this:
Fred the frog
lives in a well.
If you want him
pull the bell.
)
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 03:46 am
Ah well you can't pull a bell, can you. You have to pull on a rope or a chain, a bell-pull in fact. No wonder children always look puzzled. :wink:

That reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon, where two adults were looking at a child with a new construction toy.

Caption: "It's a new toy designed to teach them about life. Whichever way you put it together, it's wrong."
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 06:41 am
JTT wrote:
McTag wrote:
I think that's a good article, Walter.

Thanks for posting it.

Sorry I've no peeves today. Sad


Yes, great stuff, Walter. Brunnen getan!

Did I, or should I say, did they [Bablefish] get it right?


Oh, ha ha! That's like "blond genug" from The Wooden Horse

(fair enough, to save you the trouble)
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 06:52 am
A nice article, a nice argument from yesterday:

Open door

The readers' editor on ... saying what you mean to say, precisely

Ian Mayes
Monday January 29, 2007
The Guardian

Nothing excites monitors of Guardian English quite so much perhaps as the misuse of the words "refute" and "enormity". Both words have occurred in the paper in the past 10 days - "refute" used incorrectly, by the paper's own definition, on the front page, and "enormity" used with exemplary precision on the Comment pages, both broadly in the context of the cash for honours affair.
"Enormity" occurred in a column on January 23: "It will be supremely ironic if Blair ends up disgraced by the honours issue. This seems so paltry by comparison with the enormity of Iraq. It is hard to imagine a graver charge than taking the country to war under false pretences." In the headline it was writ large: "Compared to the enormity of the war, this is a paltry scandal." The author's intended sense seems perfectly in accord with the definition on which the Guardian stylebook insists: "Enormity - something monstrous or wicked; not synonymous with large."
"Refute" occurred on the front page on January 20 in a report headlined, "Honours inquiry moves closer to PM as aide arrested at dawn". The report referred to the detention, questioning and release on bail of "one of Tony Blair's closest political advisers", Ruth Turner. Ms Turner, in a statement, said: "I have been completely open with the police throughout and will continue to cooperate with them fully. I absolutely refute any allegations of wrongdoing of any nature whatsoever." In a subheading, the Guardian said: Ruth Turner refutes any wrongdoing 'absolutely'.
The quotation marks there, readers were quick to note, enclose only the word absolutely.
A reader writes: "Your front page asserts that Ruth Turner refutes 'absolutely' any wrongdoing. If she has indeed proved that she has done no wrong then she and your headline writer are entitled to the word 'refute'. It seems more likely, however, that she is confusing refutation and denial, and I fear that your headline writer is guilty of the same confusion, since he or she uses 'refute' without quotes. To refute a claim, accusation etc, is not just to assert but to prove its falsehood.
"Many, perhaps especially politicians, would like to elide the distinction. To ensure that the distinction between the two things is understood it is important to preserve the meanings of the words that mark it. The terms 'deny' and 'refute', like the terms 'assert' and 'prove', mark the difference between merely saying that something is so, and showing that it is."
There is no question of suggesting that Ms Turner is deliberately seeking to blur the distinction that this reader and others believe should be preserved. Ms Turner is clearly saying that she categorically or vehemently denies any allegations of wrongdoing, and appears to be using the word "refute" to underline the strength and totality of her denial.
Here is the Collins dictionary definition of refute: "To prove (a statement, theory, charge, etc) of (a person) to be false or incorrect; disprove." It adds: "Refute is often used incorrectly as a synonym of deny. In careful usage, however, to deny something is to state that it is untrue; to refute something is to assemble evidence in order to prove it untrue: 'all he could do was deny the allegations since he was unable to refute them'."
Chambers and Oxford dictionaries more or less concur in this. The Bloomsbury dictionary in its note on usage, however, says: "The core meaning of refute is 'to prove false or in error', though a more general sense 'to deny' has developed and is now widely established. In US English, especially, it is acceptable to use refute and rebut interchangeably in the sense 'to deny or contradict something'".
Ms Turner's use of the word is one thing. The Guardian's apparent adoption of it is another - and it is in clear conflict with the paper's stylebook: "Refute - use this much-abused word only when an argument is disproved; otherwise 'contest', 'deny', 'rebut'."
As another reader writes: "There is a difference and it would be sad to lose it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2000824,00.html
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 10:03 am
Mame wrote:
Sounds rather like me, except for the hairy, tattoo and extremely smart bits Smile


Hairy & smart are in the eye of the beholder. Anyone who can be both jovial & hot-tempered is my kind of Pict.



McTag -- It is a nice argument. Here's something more -- My Oxford Colour Dictionary says about enormity (after giving the third definition as "large size"):

Quote:
Many people believe it is wrong to use enormity to mean "great size."


I'm not arguing with you... just pointing out that Oxford recognizes the problem. Maybe there are too many Americans going to Oxford now or maybe the Guardian guardians of the language went to Cambridge.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 10:54 am
Piffka wrote:
McTag -- It is a nice argument. Here's something more -- My Oxford Colour Dictionary says about enormity (after giving the third definition as "large size"):

Quote:
Many people believe it is wrong to use enormity to mean "great size."


I'm not arguing with you... just pointing out that Oxford recognizes the problem. Maybe there are too many Americans going to Oxford now or maybe the Guardian guardians of the language went to Cambridge.


Yes. And that's not all. The article says "...the Guardian stylebook insists: "Enormity - something monstrous or wicked; not synonymous with large" and yet when I look up "monstrous" in my quite modern dictionary, the second meaning given is "huge".

Go figure, as I believe the Americans say. Smile
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 11:39 am
Mame wrote:
Sounds rather like me, except for the hairy, tattoo and extremely small bits Smile
small/smart its the same thing today no? Cool
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 04:23 pm
[slaps head] - I can't believe I wrote that - is that Freudian or what? lol
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jan, 2007 11:01 pm
Clary wrote:
Absobloodylutely, Steve!


JTT wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
JTT wrote:

I couldn't possibly explain it to one who has a preconceived notion of what it SHOULD mean, Steve.

I could possibly explain it to one who has a preconceived notion of what it SHOULD mean, Steve.

Are these two sentences opposite in meaning because one sentence uses the negative form <couldn't> and the other uses the positive form <could>?


Yes. Absolutely they are. I'm not being a pedant here. One can play all sorts of games with words without affecting meaning. But there are certain basic rules - the "not" operator being one - that you cant leave out without fundamentally changing the meaning of the sentence.


I don't believe for a second that you're trying to be pedantic here.

1. I could explain it to a person who has a preconceived notion of what it SHOULD mean, Steve.

2. I cooooould possibly explain it to a person who has a preconceived notion of what it SHOULD mean, Steve.

3. I cooooooooooould possssssibly explain it to a person who has a preconceived notion of what it SHOULD mean, Steve.

Steve, do sentences 1, 2 & 3 all express the same level of certainty?



Uhhh-uhhh-uhhh-hem, Steve.

Maybe absobloodylutely Clary could be of some assistance. Smile
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