Islamist Goals: Our Shared Islanmist Enemy

@Finn dAbuzz,

Fin dAbuzz wrote:

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not why Islamists are attacking The US and the West. Of course they would like to see Jews driven out of the region or slaughtered wholesale, but if Israel conceded to every Palestinian demand tomorrow or if the Jews in Israel turned out the lights and all migrated to Western lands, the Islamists would not fold up their tents and give leave to their violent ways.

According to the Islamists it is one reason that they are attacking the US and the West. The other reason is US and Western intervention in Muslim countries. Osama bin Laden cited Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon, the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, and sanctions against Iraq along with US support of Israel. The London Subway bombers cited bin Laden's cause as their motivation, and the British people's complicity in their government's continued oppression of Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya. The surviving Boston terrorist cited the US wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.

In light of these facts, the Islamists certainly aren't going to "fold up their tents and give leave to their violent ways."

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

It isn't unrelated at all. The bigotry being directed at Muslims is nothing new. And the defamatory accusations are nothing new. The things being said about Muslims now are very similar to the things that were said about the Jews (and the Italians, and the Chinese).

Advocate seems to believe the only thing that was wrong with antisemitism was that the bigots were attacking the wrong victims.

I believe these defamatory attacks were wrong then, and they are wrong now. I don't want to live in a society where bigotry isn't strongly condemned.

I think my point went right past you. Bringing anti-Semitism into your argument is of little concern to bigots of both stated groups, since it might just vindicate anti-Semitism. And, since you are not of Jewish background, your willingness to bring anti-Semitism into your argument shows little sensitivity to those that are Jewish and have had to live with anti-Semitism. While that might not reflect anti-Semitism, it does make me think you likely live in a very goyisha world, with a history of few, if any, Jewish friends. Enjoy! Have a wonderful Christmas.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

...The Zionist leadership perpetrated terrorism and ethnic cleansing in its effort to establish an ethnocentric state--the latter of which it continues to do so by the systematic dispossesion of non-Jews of property in Palestine...

There is a village of all Caucasian Moslems in Israel. The men even serve in the Israeli military. Also, some other non-Jewish groups live in Israel, and serve in the military.

It is not that Israel is ethnocentric, since Christmas is a legal holiday in the U.S., and no one claims the U.S. is ethnocentric. Israel is just a closed club for membership, which many other countries are also. One must just have a Kosher salami for membership. Do you really think many people would want to live in Israel, without trying to change the culture which is predominantly Jewish, similar to the U.S. culture being predominantly Christian. Ooops, was that an Easter bunny that just ran by?

0 Replies

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

But then it may be my ethnic bigotry that questions the notion and so please educate me on Christian Terrorism.

Perhaps, "Christian Terrorism" is when a Christian mother states that her son/daughter WILL GO TO COLLEGE!

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Do you see what is happening here? I could give you the list of recent atrocities committed by Christian both in and out of the US.

- Tim McVeigh
- Abortion Bombers
- Anti-gay mobs in Uganda
- The Lord's Resistance Army
- The Serbian genocide
- The current burning of children as witches.

But the motivation was not based on their religion. You seem to be stating a false correlation.

0 Replies

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

According to the Islamists it is one reason that they are attacking the US and the West. The other reason is US and Western intervention in Muslim countries.

Reasons they given for their actions are supposed to be truthful in your opinion?

Take note of all the terrorist attacks directed not at others by these people but at their own fellow Muslims from the other branch of their faith.

Mass murders sometimes need excused for their actions but those excused have little to do with their actions or the real reasons for that matter.

Osama bin Laden for example wished to overthrow his country government and wish for personal power for himself and wrapping those reasons in terms of his religion does not mean that be believed any of that nonsense.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

No Foofie, I understand your point completely. I just think it is bogus.

You are claiming that anti-semitism against Jews is fundamentally different than anti-semitism against Arabs.

I would like to see you support that argument (especially considering that Jews and Arabs are both Semitic cultures and share strong genetic, historical and linguistic ties).

People have accused Jews of horrible acts, said that Jews are immoral by nature, claimed that Jews were interested in world domination. These are the exact things being said about Muslims in this article.

Why do you think that anti-semitism against Muslims is any more acceptable than it is against Jews?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are claiming that anti-semitism against Jews is fundamentally different than anti-semitism against Arabs.

I would like to see you support that argument.

My argument need only use the thought experiment of 1945, when the survivors of the Holocaust could not find most of their family members.

The "difference" is in the collective history. No pogroms against Arabs in Czarist Russia. No Final Solution of Arabs in Nazi occupied lands.

Need more "argument"?

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Yes Foofie, I need more argument. You seem to be justifying antisemitism against Muslims. I don't understand why?

The attacks against Muslims and Jews are the same. Being accused of wanting world control, called culturally immoral, called a threat to society and a blamed for large number of troubles. I think your historical arguments are skewed and inaccurate. But how does Nazi persecution of one group based on ethnicity justify hatred of another based on ethnicity? This argument is irrelevant.

Bigotry should be opposed because it is bigotry.

You still haven't explained why vile hate targeted against a particular ethnic group should ever be tolerated.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
According to the Islamists it is one reason that they are attacking the US and the West. The other reason is US and Western intervention in Muslim countries.

Reasons they given for their actions are supposed to be truthful in your opinion?

Sure. It's more plausible than the idea that they’re violent for the sake of violence.

Quote:

Take note of all the terrorist attacks directed not at others by these people but at their own fellow Muslims from the other branch of their faith.

That is terrorism committed as a means to and end like what’s being perpetrated in Iraq by Sunni extremists against the Shia majority, as a reaction to the former's loss of entitlement and power under the Hussein regime.

Quote:

Mass murders sometimes need excused for their actions but those excused have little to do with their actions or the real reasons for that matter.

Ok. How does this negate the idea of the use of terrorism as a means towards an end as opposed to the perpetration of terrorism for its own sake?

Quote:

Osama bin Laden for example wished to overthrow his country government and wish for personal power for himself and wrapping those reasons in terms of his religion does not mean that be believed any of that nonsense.

Again, how does this negate the idea of the use of terrorism as a means towards an end as opposed to the idea of the perpetration of terrorism for its own sake?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Again, how does this negate the idea of the use of terrorism as a means towards an end as opposed to the idea of the perpetration of terrorism for its own sake?

Please show me how anyone with an average IQ including the terrorists can review the results of the terror attacks on US soil to date and come to the conclusion that those acts had promote their claims goals instead of harming those goals.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Again, how does this negate the idea of the use of terrorism as a means towards an end as opposed to the idea of the perpetration of terrorism for its own sake?

Please show me how anyone with an average IQ including the terrorists can review the results of the terror attacks on US soil to date and come to the conclusion that those acts had promote their claims goals instead of harming those goals.

So, unrealized goals negates the idea of the use of terrorism as a means towards an end? That's a non sequitur.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

So, unrealized goals negates the idea of the use of terrorism as a means towards an end? That's a non sequitur.

I am giving the leadership of the terrorist groups the credit that if their real goals was what they had stated and there are solid proof after 15 years or so that their actions are acting counter to those goals that they would change their actions.

You have two choices one they are as dumb as a group of pet rocks or that their goals are not what they are declaring them to be.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

First of all, I am not "coming after" anyone, let alone Muslims. Comments like yours are not only insulting, but absurd and indicative of classic liberal sanctimony. Do you suffer from nose bleeds up on that high horse of yours.

Secondly, I'm not defending anyone. You've made another of your incredible leaps; assuming that if I don't join you in condemning Advocate, I am defending him.

Finally, there is a very real reason why it is important to recognize the motivation of Islamist terrorists, and that is to be able to defend ourselves against them. Those who are charged with defending us from these killers would hardly be able to do a very good job of it if they were forbidden to know what they have in common.

Ignoring their religious motivations is simply foolish, and acknowledging it doesn't, by any means, insure that lynch mobs will be stringing up Arabs on American street corners. If Americans were inclined to react to Islamist terrorism with the persecution of Muslims, it would have happened already and it very simply has not.

You consider yourself a champion, but you are tilting against a dragon that doesn't exist, but hey, it makes you feel special so have at it.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

It's obvious you view these people with a sympathetic eye. I don't, and I tend not to credit murderers with honesty.

2 Replies

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It's obvious you view these people with a sympathetic eye. I don't, and I tend not to credit murderers with honesty.

I'm merely describing the use of terrorism by the Islamist extremists.

What's obvious is your predilection to offhandedly dismiss arguments with red herrings because of your inability to elucidate your own arguments.

The idea of violence for the sake of violence because you tend not to credit murderers with honesty is a risibly puerile argument.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Here is the question that you can not answer...

Why is mass murder by "Islamic extremists" any worse than mass murder by anyone else? People killed by non-Muslims are just as dead and their deaths are just as tragic.

The fact is that most mass killings in the US are committed by non-Muslims.

Your are mixing up two issues here. If you are arguing that we should give police the tools to stop mass killings, then that is a reasonable argument. Given the fact that the rate of deaths from mass killings (of all types) is very low, this should be a measured response. But I am happy to have this discussion (without accusing anyone of bigotry).

But the article that Advocate posted to start this thread isn't advocating a measured response to reduce the already very small number of people who die in mass killings wach year.

This article is suggesting that we see a particular religion as an existential threat. This is not the same as a measured response to stop mass killings, this ic a call for us to hate and fear members of a specific ethnic group.

There is a big difference between reasoned discussion about safety and bigotry. The article that starts this thread is unquestionably an example of bigotry.

If anyone started a thread about a reasoned way to reduce the number of deaths in mass killings, I would be happy to chime in.

But, in a civilized democracy, bigotry must be strongly opposed.

2 Replies

@raprap,

Religion, politics, they seem to be interchangeable in todays U.S. society.

0 Replies

@Finn dAbuzz,

Which murders are you talking about? Jewish murders or Moslem murders?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

... You seem to be justifying antisemitism against Muslims. I don't understand why?...

You still haven't explained why vile hate targeted against a particular ethnic group should ever be tolerated.

I never was justifying anti-Semitism against Muslims. You are misconstruing what my point was. My point was that anti-Semitism against Jews has a totally different history, and therefore it is a false correlation to claim that the two anti-Semitisms are alike.

Nor do I have to "explain why vile hate" should not be acceptable. (You used the word "ever be tolerated." You must have meant "never be tolerated." Please edit your posts.) It would not be my concern, since as a Semite (of sorts), the onus might lie with your group to erase anti-Semitism.

You are also assuming that an individual is aware of vile hate to a group. Many people are oblivious to such hate, since they are not the haters, and would be surprised that there are people that do have vile hate. I am not really aware of vile hate towards Muslims in my community. If they are hated elsewhere, I would not be able to expound on it. I tend to focus on my local environs.

Please do the Paul Revere thing with someone else.

1 Reply

Islamist Goals: Our Shared Islanmist Enemy

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know