What's the point of Patriotism?

kickycan wrote:

My point was that patriotism does not allow clarity of vision and objectivity, and because of that, it is not only unnecessary, it is a detriment, and not a benefit.

First, I love Bill Hicks. Cool

Second, I have to go back to my analogy again, because I still think it works. Your argument--to me--amounts to suggesting that if a criminal were pointing a gun towards my father and a stranger standing beside my father, that my preference towards shielding my father from harm rather than a stranger is "not only unnecessary, it is a detriment, and not a benefit". My father is not a perfect man, but he deserves my fealty, perhaps slightly more than he has earned it. That doesn't mean I support him when he is wrong or turn a blind eye when he does something bad, but it means I support his successes and share his failures with the hope that they will be few and far between.

And yes, my feelings towards my country are very much like that.

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Let's take the case before us right now...Richard Clark.

We have a top level official, who resigns from an administration after some thirty years serving in four adminstrations because he holds that present policies are destructive and that the communications coming out of that administration are deceitful or disengenuous. He then publicly speaks on these matters, well aware that he will be attacked every way from Tuesday.

Surely, a patriotic act.

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You mean an official who had been demoted, lost interest in his job and quit. Then, wrote a book about his OPINIONS, published the book and THEN stepped forward, right?

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I can't resist posting this here. I love this song, and think the lyrics speak to the issue being discussed:

Quote:

"I Am A Patriot" - Little Steven

And the river opens for the righteous
Someday

I was walking with my brother
And he wondered what's on my mind
I said what I believe in my soul
Ain't what I see with my eyes
And we can't turn our backs this time

I am a patriot
And I love my county
Because my country is all I know
I want to be with my family
The people who understand me
I've got nowhere else to go

And the river opens for the righteous
And the river opens for the righteous
And the river opens for the righteous
Someday

And I was talking with my sister
She looked so fine
I said, "Baby, what's on your mind?"
She said, "I want to run like the lion
Released from the cages
Released from the rages
Burning in my heart tonight"

And I ain't no communist
And I ain't no capitalist
And I ain't no socialist
And I ain't no imperialist
And I ain't no democrat
And I ain't no republican
I only know one party
And it is freedom

I am, I am, I am
I am a patriot
And I love my country
Because my county is all I know

And the river opens for the righteous
And the river opens for the righteous
And the river opens for the righteous
Someday

I think it's about the concept Fedral and Linkat espoused, that being a patriot isn't blind allegiance to whatever your country does, it's loving what your country stands for enough to support your country when it is right and decry your country when it is wrong.

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dlowan wrote:

Heehee - ILZ made a Freudian slip!

"I usually differ to your superior lexicon but I disagree."

Sorry - just like freudian slips...

No, not a Freudian slip, just a complete misuse of a word and poor spelling.

Oops.

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we knew what you meant ILZ. The meaning is more important the words.

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Scrat wrote:

First, I love Bill Hicks.

Well, I guess you can't be all bad then :wink:

I'll have to get back to you about the rest. Damn work, interfering with my free time!

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Excellent way to put it scrat.

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I'm not keen on that song, and here's why:
"And I love my country
Because my county is all I know"
Those two lines describe the problem perfectly, and especially for people in this country.
I love my country too, but I want to know about others, as well. Why? Because we don't live in a vacuum. I think we've all learned that now.
Scrat, didn't you point out on another thread (or maybe it was Fedral)? that a limited knowledge of other things can be considered brainwashing?
In which case, that brings us right back to the gist of the topic!

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I know my own nation best. That's why I despise it the most. And know and love my own people, too, the swine. I'm a patriot. A dangerous man.

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Uh, I cannot resist noting that from personal experience, as well as reading, watching and listening, I can say:

Americans are as great patriots, as they are great familists.

Sometimes hearing US president's speech, you can hear how he is leaning patriotism on the love for you dear ones (family), and strengthening the holy family in the love for your God.

Uh, I must admit it is a powerful concept to hold a country so diverse and so big together.

As for me, I can respect what my environment has done for me, and separate that from what it's doing for me. And that concerns the state as well as the family, the old and new. But one must have a broad and long focused view for this approach, for otherwise you're just blown with the wind.

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Suzy - I can't speak to what Little Steven (Steven Van Zandt) actually meant when he wrote that, but I know him to be more than a little liberal ( Very Happy

) and I can tell you what I think he meant or at least what those lines mean to me.

The phrase "I love my country, because my country is all I know" doesn't mean that I have no experience of anything other than my own country, but that living in America is all he knows how to do because that is his experience, that has been his life. I hate to keep going back to the family analogy, but I think it works here too. I only know how to be a member of my family; I understand it's dynamics and how I fit in with my parents and siblings. That doesn't mean I don't know of other families, it just means that my family is part of my core experience as a person, and shapes who I am. Likewise, I've visited more countries than I can count (at least right off the top of my head... I could probably produce a number if I stopped to think about it), but having visited those countries and gotten to know some people there doesn't alter the fact that I am an American with American experiences and a deeply held belief in the things for which America stands.

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Scrat, first of all, I realize it's rude to just say your idea is ridiculous, especially without explaining why. I have a tendency to be rude like that, but I apologize. In regards to your first comment, I'll explain why I think a family is nothing like a country. Of course you can make comparisons, but I bet I could find as many similarities between a family and an orange. Of course, they are not the same thing, and there is no reason to love or respect an orange.
Two major reasons I see: A family is not formed as a means to segregate oneself from other families--a country is. Families don't delcare war upon one another (not as a rule), but countries most definitely do.
Patriotism is taking pride in your country. I have heard it said that "pride takes no joy in having something, but in having more of it than the next man," or something to that extent. I see patriotism as a means of competition. One country feeling proud because they see themselves as better than another country. Of course, perfect people wouldn't allow pride in something to turn to competition, but we fall short of such character.

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Scoates - Others have made some very good comments about how families and nations provide similar protections and advantages but simply do so on different scales. I won't take time to repeat those comments since apparently you found them unconvincing the first time. I remain convinced that my opinion on this has merit, but I'm perfectly comfortable with you thinking otherwise, up to and including thinking it "ridiculous". If that's what you think, that's what you think. :wink:

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Well, just like a family is protection for its members, the orange's rind is protection for al of the pieces inside. As far as advantages, an orange tree has to create less rind when it groups the slices together into one orange than if they were seperate and each piece had its own rind. It's just on a different scale than the protection and advantages of a family. Still, an orange is a completely different thing.
(I do, however, respect your opinion, and I understand why few would agree with me)

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"I am an American with American experiences and a deeply held belief in the things for which America stands."
Well, so am I.
Let's go back to that quote by Twain:
"Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may." ~Mark Twain

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Suzy - I agree with Twain. (Thanks for sharing the quote.) My comments here are only meant to indicate what patriotism means to me. I do not mean to suggest that mine is the "right" definition or the way everybody "should" feel. I've simply tried to share what it means to me, and why I can't agree with kicky's viewpoint here. I can accept that he feels the way he's described, but I hope that I may have shown him that I can feel patriotism without being blinded by it, and that for me it does have both value and a purpose.

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Clarification
Since we communicate to each other on a fairly regular basis, I feel the need to clarify my position regarding patriotism.

I have actually stated this here before. I believe in The Constitution, The Declaration of Independence and The Bill of Rights. I admit that I don't fully understand every nuance of these Documents but I believe that I do understand the basics.

The Govt. is not my boss.. The Pres.. is not my king. The Congress is a body of people that are supposed to dedicate themselves to the wlefare of ALL the people not just their wealthy patrons. The Supreme Court is supposed to interpret the laws not make brand new ones unless those are to the benefit of more freedom from tyranny.I believe in strict seperation of church and state.

I am a propenant of small capitalism, not huge Corps that dominate the Govt.

That's a tiny bit of where I am at.

I also believe that there are countries that are just as good as America that have as much freedom or maybe even more than America does. There are countries that have better laws and social programs than America does.

People that wrap themselves in any flag and also espouse their religion are not necessarily patriots and in many cases are scroundrels and thieves.

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pistoff - I see plenty with which I can agree and too little to complain of (at this late hour, at least) in your point of view. Cool

That I prefer my own country does not mean I think there are no others worthy of equal devotion from their countrymen and some modicum of respect and admiration from me.

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I have had such a long day, but I just thought I'd make this post so that you didn't think I'd forgot you Scrat. I think I see where you're coming from, and even though I don't feel the same way, I do see how patriotism might not always be a bad thing.

That being said, I'd like to say that I try to view my country the same way I'd view having sex with a hooker. Feelings don't enter into it. I get some thing from it, it gets some thing from me, end of story. I don't feel any sense of loyalty (or at least I try not to) for the United States. It is only a place where I live. It is not my mother, my father, and there is no special bond that I feel for it. I feel that if I can do that, I can be more objective and see the bigger truths, which is what I am interested in.

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What's the point of Patriotism?

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