What's the point of Patriotism?

I'm with Heywood, and I understand what you're saying, kicky.
The mother analogy is dead on. You'll find that many GOPers are more into the "father" view.

Nationalism (and its more acceptable public face of patriotism) arises from the common identity shared by a population.

In many instance, the term "nationalism" is used to define that sentiment and associated actions connected with the formation of a state with a population who share something (ethnicity, language or religion) from a state which does not mirror the shared identity in its wider population or political movements. e.g. former Yugoslavia, Palestine, Quebec, Northern Ireland.

Patriotism is the grown-up version of this. The country exists and stands on certain principles. In certain countries, e.g. USA, there is a very explicit set of defining principles. Many other countries, such as my own (UK) have less formalised definitions of what it means to be a citizen but still the people have a common sense that they are one body with shared goals, different from those of other nations.

Of course, this can break down when certain groups see that they do not conform to the national stereotype or believe that another country's views are more acceptable to them. Migration is not always possible, so you will find that some people dissent from commonly held national views and are therefore deemed "un-patriotic".

What frustrates me (with the use of "un-patriotic" as an insult) is that these people may be using their rights under the principles of their own country - in particular the right to free speech - and are therefore expressing divergent views which (while in the minority) are nonetheless very much part of a tolerant societal framework.

The questions which seem to be raised more and more in this post-modern age (yes, that's subject to debate, just not here!) are that the associations into groups or the levels of activity on issues which relate to our own, personal, existences may no longer be effectively dealt with at a national level.

For example, supra-national control of environmental regulation, human rights and immigration has been agreed between the EU member states. There are very good reasons for having a common policy on these issues, not least of which is that it avoids "arbitrage" between different national legislations, thereby undermining the level playing field of the single market.

On the other hand, certain regions in certain countries may have specific issues for which there is no national equivalent and therefore taxation, regulation and social order can be determined at a sub-national level. The USA's differential legislation in the individual states is a perfect example of this. Howard Dean's policies in Vermont are hardly what Texans would chose as their own!

So, patriotism is pragmatic. Yes, AND it is fostered out of totemic symbols - the stars and stripes (USA), the picture of the queen or simply a cup of tea (UK), the national sports team (many, but particularly Australia), the perfect coffee (Italy), the most exact food standards (France). There are so many more - around which we associate and which we carry before our groupings as our symbol of identity.

The biggest difficulty comes where groups do not see their views represented in the nations which they inhabit and you're back to square one - new nationalism or calls for special treatment...particularly where there has been a lack of support in the past.

Humans are societal animals - we like to live in groups. We try to make sure we live in groups in which we feel included and able to make ourselves heard...and in an ideal world we would. Nations are still the prevailing groupings by which we define ourseleves and others, in the Western world. In some contexts, religion, ethnicity or language are more powerful and therefore cut accross national borders...but that's still the minority.

KP

"Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him. ~Abraham Lincoln


Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them! ~Albert Einstein

You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. ~George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism, the virtue of the vicious. ~Oscar Wilde

If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident. ~Montesquieu


I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of the world. ~Socrates

But on the other hand:
A private man, however successful in his own dealing, if his country perish is involved in her destruction; but if he be an unprosperous citizen of a prosperous city, he is much more likely to recover. Seeing, then, that States can bear the misfortunes of individuals, but individuals cannot bear the misfortunes of States, let us all stand by our country. ~Thucydides

And so...
Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may." ~Mark Twain
Does that clear things up?

There's also a nice quote by Reagan to Gorbachev! (I liked Gorby)

"I couldn't help but say to [Mr. Gorbachev], just think how easy his task and mine might be in these meetings that we held if suddenly there was a threat to this world from another planet. [We'd] find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this earth together."
~Ronald Reagan, 1985
Remember the movie "Independance Day"?

"Men love their ideas more than their lives. And the more preposterous the idea, the more eager they are to die for it. And to kill for it." --Edward
Abbey

I am the flag of the United States of America.

My name is Old Glory.

I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.

I stand watch in America's halls of justice.

I fly majestically over institutions of learning.

I stand guard with power in the world.

Look up and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.

I stand for freedom.

I am confident.

I am arrogant.

I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners, my head is a little higher, my colors a little truer.

I bow to no one!

I am recognized all over the world.

I am worshipped - I am saluted.

I am loved - I am revered.

I am respected - and I am feared.

I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appomattox.

I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France, in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome, on the beaches of Normandy, Guam, Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam know me, I was there. I led my troops, I was dirty, battleworn and tired, but my soldiers cheered me.

I was proud.

I have been burned, torn and trampled on the streets of countries

I have helped set free. It does not hurt, for I am invincible.

I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and trampled on the streets of my country.

And when it's by those whom I've served in battle - it hurts. But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.

I have borne silent witness to all of America's finest hours. But my finest hours are yet to come.

When I am torn into strips and used as bandages for my wounded comrades on the battlefield, when I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier, or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent at the grave of their fallen son or daughter, I am proud.

MY NAME IS OLD GLORY..MAY I FLY PROUDLY FOR ANOTHER TWO HUNDRED YEARS.

"I" seems a bit over anthropomorhic

I turn an odd yellow color when peed on.

R.I.P.

That's a good post, craven. Scrat's comparison IS valid.

I love my shirt, I love my shirt,
My shirt is so comfortably lovely.
I love my shirt, I love my shirt,
My shirt is so comfortably lovely.
Do you have some jeans that you really love,
Ones that you feel so groovy in ?
You don't even mind if they start to fray
That only makes them nicer still.
I love my jeans, I love my jeans,
My jeans are so comfortably lovely.
I love my jeans, I love my jeans,
My jeans are so comfortably lovely.
When they are taken to the cleaners,
I can't wait to get them home again.

I understand what you are trying to say, but do not agree with it 100 percent. In other words, I agree just because you were born here (f*cked has nothing to do with it as it is where a child is born not where they were conceived that determines their citizenship) does not mean that you should be patriotic. However, if you love what your country stands for, in the case of the US our love of freedom, then you should show patriotism. I think you are confusing the thought that patriotism should be automatic because you were born there vs. the thought of just having a love and devotion of your country because you love what your country stands for. And I agree with you in that you should not blinding be devoted to your country, but that does not mean patriotism is bullsh*t. The definition is not to be blind of why you are devoted. There is nothing wrong or fake about patriotism if you truly love your country and are clear and objective about it.

I think pistoff you are more of a patriot than you think. You are not blindly loyal, but are willing to speak out about those things you find wrong in our country. That is not being unpatriotic seeing part of the country's beliefs is freedom of speech. What you seem to have issue with is not the country, but the current people who are in government positions.

I think Heywood describes it very well.

Okay, I was going to argue the point that Scrat made, and it could be argued, but I'd rather just try to make my point about patriotism in a different way, to show what I mean.

By the way, that line about being patriotic just because your parents f*cked there was from a comedian named Bill Hicks that nobody on here has probably ever heard of, and when I was writing that original post, it came to me and I couldn't resist using it.

My point was that patriotism does not allow clarity of vision and objectivity, and because of that, it is not only unnecessary, it is a detriment, and not a benefit.

For example, when the U.S. was starting the war with Iraq, everything logical in me said that the reasons were a lie, and it was not the right thing to do. When they went in and started the war, I avoided all news about it for about a week, because I was so conflicted about it. I didn't want to hear it. Why was I conflicted? Because I did not want to believe that my country was doing something like this. Why did I not want to believe it? Because of patriotism. And patriotism is what allowed this war to happen. If the citizens of this country could have looked at the situation with an objective eye, maybe there would have been ten times the number of protesters at the time, and the outcry could have possibly even forced our government to find another way to approach the situation in Iraq.

That is how patriotism is bullshit.

I think the height of Patriotism is to have the courage to speak your mind on your country's actions,if you believe them to be wrong, regardless of what people around you may think.

To step forward and choose to break rank with the lemmings as they run towards the cliff and stand at the edge shouting to them of the foolishness of their actions shows a persons courage and moral conviction.

One just must remember that people who do such things are usually cast as 'traitors' or 'heretics' and most often come to a bad end, but to have the courage to do so is what makes a patriot.

Fedral,

I disagree. That's not patriotism, that's a strong sense of conviction to your own principles and values...it's got nothing to do with your country.

KP

The word patriotism comes from a Greek word meaning fatherland. For most of history, love of fatherland or homeland was an attachment to the physical features of the land. But that notion changed in the eighteenth century, when the ideals of democracy, socialism, and communism strongly emerged into political thought. Patriotism was still a love of one's country that included connections to the land and people, but then also included its customs and traditions, pride in its history, and devotion to its welfare.

Today most people agree that patriotism also involves service to their country, but many disagree on how to best perform such service. Some believe that the national government speaks for a country; therefore, all its citizens should actively support government policies and actions. Others argue that a true patriot speaks out when convinced that their country is following an unwise or unjust action.

I would agree that some problems arise from the blind variety of patriotism, but I think that problems also arise from a blind negativity towards one's country. While there are surely some people in this country who think that the US can do no wrong, there seem to be a far greater number today who think the US can do no right, and they are just as blind to our successes as are the others to our failings.

kitchenpete

No, I think Fedral has a corner of this quite right. Where we tend to find patriotism problematic, is when it shifts into jingoism, and allegiance come hell or high water.

I disagree kitchenpete,

Just because the majority believe something, doesn't make it the right course for the country. Sometimes the things that are best in the long term for the country as a whole must be made clear by a vocal minority.
Por exemplo:

Slavery: In America, there were as rabid and very vocal minority that spoke out for the abolition of slavery. Even though the majority of the country ranged from pro slavery to total indifference to the subject, the abolitionists realized that the country never live up to its promise of life, liberty and freedom that it promised it's citizens as long as anyone lay in chains.

The people who fought this fight were not popular, in fact many were vilified by the press and their opponents. Yet they persevered because they believed in their cause.

You may not think that this counts as patriotism per se, but I think that standing up for what you believe your country represents and fighting to keep your country on the course it has charted for itself IS patriotism.

I agree with federal. A lot of Patriotism has to deal with speaking up for what you think is wrong. Isn't that what America as a country was all about? Who were the ones first called Patriots? The ones that spoke up and fought for what they believed in.