What's the point of Patriotism?

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patriotism

\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

Patriotism is bullshit. Why should anyone feel love or devotion to a country just because their parents happened to have f*cked there? I think patriotism is just another act of blind faith that is used by people in power to control the sheep-like masses.

What do you think?

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I agree, but I just don't feel so strongly about it. However, I think this will get a lot of people angry, and I'm curious to see what happens. I can understand people liking america, because it's a nice place to live, but when people come from "bad" countries, or certain parts of america, and they act proud about it, it's just stupid. Or when they are proud about their race. No one should care. Patriotism is what causes wars.

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I suppose one could make the same argument you are making but apply it to one's parents or family... Why should I respect, love, or feel any attachment, commitment or preference for my parents or family just because I happened to be born of- or related to- them?

But I won't make that argument, because I happen to believe that I owe something to my parents, to my siblings, and yes, to my country.

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Yes, you could make that argument if you were trying to change the subject.

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kickycan wrote:

Yes, you could make that argument if you were trying to change the subject.

Perhaps you miss my point, or perhaps you just want an argument. Confused

On the off chance that it's the former, my point was that for me the debt of love, duty, and respect I owe my family is drawn from the same well as is the debt I owe my country. Both are equally reasonable or irrational depending upon your point of view.

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That's ridiculous Scrat. It's completely unrelated.

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No it's not. Scrat has a valid point. I hate patriotism too but he's spot on. Be right back.

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Perhaps you should actually say what you mean in the first place then, Scrat. Thanks for explaining it to me. Loving a person is completely different than loving an abstract idea like a country. I think if people looked at a country without the blinders of love and devotion, it would allow them to look at issues with objectivity and clarity of vision.

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SCoates wrote:

That's ridiculous Scrat. It's completely unrelated.

Perhaps it is to you. It is not to me.

But maybe you can help me see why it is different to you. The original argument made here--if I understand it--is that having a deep love and commitment to one's country is irrational and baseless. How is that different from the love and commitment one feels for one's parents? KC argues, in part...

Quote:

Why should anyone feel love or devotion to a country just because their parents happened to have f*cked there?

Isn't that virtually the same argument as asking "Why should anyone feel love or devotion to their parents just because their parents happened to have f*cked?"?

If the answer to that question revolves around what things my parents may have done for me, given me; if you point to a debt I owe them can't I just as easily argue that I owe my country a similar debt for what it has given me, done for me?

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BS
It's a crock of bull. If one's parents abusing &/or neglects them they should still have this blind loyalty and respect etc. towards them?

Patriotism and the Pledge of Allegiance are crap foisted upon us, brainwashing us.

I feel that I like America but I cannot tolerate the Govt. that abuses it's people. I have zero repsect, loyalty or love for the Govt., expecially the one that is in power now..

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Love of family and such is an survival mechanism just like patriotism is. Solidarity is a survival mechanism.

Patriotism springs from the same tribalism that does our alleatory familial bonds. Proximity and empathy forging solidarity are very basic survival mechanisms. Patriotism and familial bonds are similar in this respect even if the scope of both are very different.

I happen to think that they are very different in terms of need, and that civilization has evolved to a point where nationalism and patriotism is mainly useful only for economic warfare but Scrat's spot on to compare it to love for family.

It's comparable in both good and bad ways. Both are a form of solidarity that is a survival mechanism. Both are partially instinctual and mindless.

Both have needs rooted in collective survival.

Both share the root that is empathy.

I think that in modern society we are evolving past the need for patriotism (though I see familial bond as becoming more necessary) but the comparison is spot on.

It's not the same thing, but definitely related.

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Craven - I'd call that an exceptional post, but I don't want to get on your bad side. :wink:

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Damn, I wish I had more time to argue this with you Scrat. I wish I would have thought of posting this earlier. I'll be back!!!

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kickycan wrote:

Damn, I wish I had more time to argue this with you Scrat. I wish I would have thought of posting this earlier. I'll be back!!!

I'll look forward to it. And FWIW, it isn't that I don't understand your point of view; I think I do. I just don't share it, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not just a blind sheep. :wink: Which I guess is my way of suggesting that perhaps we each have a rational point of view here based on our own personal experience and opinions.

Catch you later...

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Quote:

Patriotism is bullshit. Why should anyone feel love or devotion to a country just because their parents happened to have f*cked there? I think patriotism is just another act of blind faith that is used by people in power to control the sheep-like masses.

Scrat, I wouldn't call that a "rational point of view". I would call it a rant.

Kicky, Is there ANYTHING other than yourself that you DO feel love and devotion towards?

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There should also be a kind of subset to patriotism: "Blind" patriotism. THATS where all the problems arise when it comes to this stuff.

I was born here and I have a love for this country (or rather the Constitution and Bill of Rights... two things that aren't faring so well as of late).

In any case, people who BLINDLY worship and venerate this country are the ones that worry me. Those are the ones that just can't see ANYTHING wrong with the USA, and to think that this country is anything less than "THE BEST", have some serious problems and I feel sorry for them.

I don't know who said it, but we should love this country like a mother loves her child. With knowledge of what is good and what it is capable of doing to help others, but also knowing that it can f*ck up and do the wrong thing, just like anyone else. As its citizens, its up to us to do what we can to keep it moving in the right direction. (I'm keeping my fingers crossed with that hope in November).

Here's to hoping for the best...

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Heywood wrote:

There should also be a kind of subset to patriotism: "Blind" patriotism.

There is: jingoism.

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Debating the difference between that negative word - nationalism - and its more acceptable euphemism - patriotism - always makes for a fruitfull discussion. I submit that there is no meaningfull difference.

Quote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
Heywood wrote:
There should also be a kind of subset to patriotism: "Blind" patriotism.

There is: jingoism.

I usually kneel to your superior lexicon but I disagree.

Jingoism refers to a chauvinistic and belligerant, almost xenophobic, patriotism. Blind patriotism covers more than that, however. For example, the form of blind patriotism best examplified in religious fruitcakes, etc, etc, etc. Many of the manifestations of blind patriotism are niether chauvinistic nor belligerent, but they are pernicious all the same, IMO.

As an aside: Its no small coincidence that blind patriotism, political conservativism, and religious fundamentalism tend to go hand in hand. Myopic ignorance is the common theme. All three positions are the default position of sheep-like gullibility, ignorance, and irrational bias, no?

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Heehee - ILZ made a Freudian slip!

"I usually differ to your superior lexicon but I disagree."

Sorry - just like freudian slips...

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Ho hum, we've done this nonsense before . . .

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What's the point of Patriotism?

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