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Lib Dem British MP Castigates Israel

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 07:18 pm
@Foofie,
Who ever claimed they were benign noisemakers? Nobody except you!

Get real! Live in the real world - and try to have some empathy for Palestinians. More innocent Palestinian children are killed by the Israelis than the other way around - no matter what the cause.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 07:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm third generation American, and was told by many whites to "return to your own country." Where was I supposed to go?


You are not supposed to go anywhere. In my opinion, the big secret is that many in plain vanilla America would like all those that subscribe to a different culture to assimilate totally. How? Intermarriage. And, as you've said before, that has happened in your family. So, while you are racially 100% Asian, it is a non-sequitor, since a large demographic of mixed race children will be in the next generation, and eventually many "white" Americans will have an Asian ancestor.

Your complaining is atavistic, since the future will be an assimilated Asian community for the most part, in my opinion. Asians have too many positives to not be considered good mates. In fact, I think there is many a Caucasian male that considers having an Asian wife correlating to a trophy wife.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 07:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

... Live in the real world - and try to have some empathy for Palestinians. More innocent Palestinian children are killed by the Israelis than the other way around - no matter what the cause.


The "real world" for me is NYC and continuing 3,000 miles west, ending at the Pacific Ocean (aka, California). I have empathy for Americans. Palestinians, in my opinion, would not "get with the program" of modern Jews making a modern country to compensate for a prior generation getting hunted. Your anguish is just wasting everyone's time, in my opinion. There are reasons that Israel will survive, and its not about philo-Semitism. It's about the value of a Zionist State in the high tech industries. No one wants to say it (like in the fable the King's New Suit of Clothes), but if Jews were just stupid, there might be no Israel today; however, since Jews are good at technological innovation, that others make money from, Jews are valued in Israel, plus Gentiles in the west do not have to have innovative Jews in their country. It's a win-win situation for Gentile anti-Semitism, and a large bulk of the world's Jews. The concern for Palestinians is based, world-wide on the still current need for mid-east oil, in my opinion. Otherwise, in my opinion, they would generate as much concern as the Gypsies do.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 07:40 pm
@Foofie,
Your mindset about a Jewish state that discriminates against Palestinians only proves your bigotry. No more need be said on the subject.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 07:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Your mindset about a Jewish state that discriminates against Palestinians only proves your bigotry. No more need be said on the subject.


Well it's not a Palestinian State? Sort of like complaining about Anglos being treated differently in Chinatown.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
A great moral defense there CI. It will never happen and so I don't have to answer your unpleasent question.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Rant on CI, rant on.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 12:37 am
@izzythepush,
Oh really? Identify the straw man I have constructed.

Your MP did, in fact, say that Jews, by virtue of their experience with the Holocaust, should adopt a non-violent approach to "other peoples."

You simply cannot sway from your position that Palestinian violence is righteous and justified.

No one on the Palestinian side has justified violence? Are you really this gullible?

Somehow you have the amazing ability to know that the Palestinians, in their hearts, abhor the violence they perpetrate but that Jews "delight in it."

The Holocaust was a "gift" for the state of Israel. This has to be one of the most outrageous and offensive comments I've seen in this forum.

I have not once "talked about" in this thread the need for Palestinians to stop employing violence. What I have talked about is that if the Jewish experience should restrict them from employing violence, then it only makes sense that the Palestinian experience should do the same. You and others are desperate to give the Palestinans a free pass on their violence while utterly condemning the violence of the Israelis (which you seem to have a problem separating from "Jews")

You are, clearly, All-In for the Palestinians, and logic be damned.

As for me, the Settlements are provacative and unjustified and not only should be stopped but removed.

Clearly the Palestinians in all their forms have set themselves up as enemies of Israel, and therefore I don't have a problem with Israel treating them as such.

What Israel should do, and sooner rather than later, is to assure that the Palestinians have a nation of their own. Give them complete soverignty over Gaza and the West Bank.

Once there is a true Palestinian nation, Israel can treat, under your sacred international law, it as every other nation treats neighboring nations.

Firing rockets into Israel will be an act of war, and international law will allow for a retailiatory response.

Of course folk like you will then part way from international law and still demand that Israel essentially surrender to its enemies.

Israel can never win in the UN and with you and your ilk unless it effectively surrenders to the Palestinians.

You identify with anyone your dilletante sensibilities tell you are the "oppressed," because this makes you feel good, and so you go to concerts and rallies in London that profess to support the oppressed Palestinians.

Of course your cool driven sensibilities don't tell you that Coptic Christians in Egypt are oppressed, and so you're not inclined to take up for them the way you've taken up for the approved victims in the world.

You get a a real kick out of the leftist London scene's boycotting anything associated with Israel, commerically or culturally because it means so much and has such a positive effect!

And you consistently excuse the violence employed by the Freedom Fighters you so admire, while wailing to the heavens about how deplorable the violence the Israelis (or Jews, as you prefer to call them) use to defend themselves.

You have the nerve to deplore what you consider to be the unsophisticated and ignorant Manchean world view of American "Neo-Cons" while you apply that very same view to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

You and your confreres have played precisely into the hands of the Palestinian PR machine and you have enabled the conflict to continue unabetted.

Your opinion on these matters is of little to no value.












Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 12:46 am
@InfraBlue,
So the firing of rockets into populated Israeli territory can somehow be distinguished from "oppression?"

This is quite akin to the argument that blacks cannot be racists.

Fine with me, Israel should immediately acknowledge Gaza and the West Bank (and whatever connecting lands are required) as a seoverign nation of the Palestinians.

Then when Hamas fires rockets into Israel or bombs civilian buses their retaliatory violent responses will not be classified as oppression, but self-defense, and they can count on your support.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:00 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

So the firing of rockets into populated Israeli territory can somehow be distinguished from "oppression?"


This is like saying that Iraqi Freedom, a war that you supported as, among other things, an act against Saddam Hussein's oppression of the Iraqi people, was an act of oppression.

The firing of rockets into populated Israeli territory--which has proven to be largely self-defeating, although the latest instance induced the Zionists to loosen their restrictions against the Gaza Strip--is a response to oppression.

Quote:
This is quite akin to the argument that blacks cannot be racists.


This is a non sequitur.

The argument isn't that the Palestinians cannot be oppressors. The argument is that in the case of the Israel/Palestine conflict, the Zionists are oppressing, i.e. keeping down the Palestinians through unjust use of authority and force. The lesson that the Zionists should have learned through the "Jewish" experience of oppression, i.e. the Holocaust, is that oppression is immoral and unjust. Instead, they justify their oppression of the Palestinian peoples with the "Jewish" experience of oppression. That is hypocritical.

Quote:
Fine with me, Israel should immediately acknowledge Gaza and the West Bank (and whatever connecting lands are required) as a seoverign nation of the Palestinians.


This completely ignores the Palestinians' Right of Return.

Quote:
Then when Hamas fires rockets into Israel or bombs civilian buses their retaliatory violent responses will not be classified as oppression, but self-defense, and they can count on your support.


No, by repudiating the Palestinians' Right of Return the Zionists would merely be perpetuating their oppression of the Palestinian peoples and the conflict that has resulted thereof.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 04:47 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
And you consistently excuse the violence employed by the Freedom Fighters you so admire, while wailing to the heavens about how deplorable the violence the Israelis (or Jews, as you prefer to call them) use to defend themselves.


I've not once used racist terminology , unlike those supporting the Israelis. Neither have I claimed the Coptic Christians aren't having a hard time, but I doubt you'd even mention them if they were being treated badly by anyone other than Moslems.

For someone who disapproves of settlement building you've got a funny way of showing it, just a bit of hand wringing, while Israel creates facts on the ground making a Palestinian state untenable. At which point you'll probably just shrug and look away. It's just a cover for your obvious Islamophobia, which has even affected your reasoning regarding the current pope's resignation.

David Ward is not my MP, he's a bloody Liberal, and he represents Bradford not Southampton, but don't let facts get in the way.

You're outraged by what I say, but sanguine about the huge death toll inflicted upon the Palestinians. By your logic, pointing out murder is an act of bigotry, but killing Moslems is understandable. Israel uses the Holocaust to justify its actions all the time, and uses the spectre of anti-Semitism to stifle criticism. That doesn't stop them cosying up to Nazis when it suits them.

Quote:
When the South African prime minister John Vorster made a state visit to Israel in April 1976, it began with a tour of Yad Vashem, Israel's major Holocaust memorial, where the late Yitzhak Rabin invited the onetime Nazi collaborator, unabashed racist and white supremacist to pay homage to Jews murdered in the Holocaust.

Compared, say, to routine outcries from organized Jewry over often even mild whiffs of Holocaust controversy, no less remarkable was the bland equanimity both Israeli and diaspora Jews also displayed toward the Vorster visit.


http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/event.php?eid=1134

I've not once condoned Palestinian violence, merely pointed out that it's more understandable than the systematic brutality of the IDF.

Quote:
Firing rockets into Israel will be an act of war, and international law will allow for a retailiatory response.


What about firing missiles into Syria, or Lebanon? You seem to think that's alright.

Quote:
What Israel should do, and sooner rather than later, is to assure that the Palestinians have a nation of their own. Give them complete soverignty over Gaza and the West Bank.


And you think that by simply shrugging your shoulders while the settlement process is accelerated, this is going to happen? It won't happen, the reverse is the case.

Quote:
Clearly the Palestinians in all their forms have set themselves up as enemies of Israel, and therefore I don't have a problem with Israel treating them as such.


It's a real provocative gesture isn't it, being born on a stretch of land that's wanted by another country? I suppose all those Native Americans did exactly the same thing, but never mind you certainly punished them for their bigotry.

You may support countries/actions because you think it's cool, but don't tar others with the same brush. Not all of us used to be bloody hippies.

Quote:
Israel can never win in the UN and with you and your ilk unless it effectively surrenders to the Palestinians.


You really are out of touch, nobody supporting Palestinian self determination on this thread, has advocated other than an end to the occupation of the West Bank, and an end to the siege of Gaza. You claim to support the same outcome, but you'd rather just look the other way and blame everything on those who are being oppressed. If anyone is a dilettante, it's you.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 12:27 pm
@izzythepush,
And the latest.

Quote:
Thousands of Palestinian prisoners are refusing food for one day in protest at the death of a fellow detainee in an Israeli jail.

Thirty-year-old Arafat Jaradat died of a heart attack on Saturday, the Israeli prison service said.

Israel has launched an investigation into what happened.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's envoy has made "an unequivocal demand" to the Palestinian Authority to calm a wave of protests in the West Bank.

"Israel passed an unequivocal demand to the Palestinian Authority to calm down the territory," through his personal envoy Yitzhak Molcho, the government said in a statement on Sunday.

Mr Jaradat's death comes after a week of violent clashes between the Israeli army and Palestinian youths over the continued detention of four hunger strikers.

"About 3,000 prisoners announced that they would refuse meals," Israel Prisons Service spokeswoman Sivan Weizman told Agence France Presse (AFP), saying they would not eat any of their three daily meals.

'Tear gas'

Mr Jaradat, a father of two from the village of Sair, near Hebron, in the southern West Bank, died suddenly on Saturday in Israeli's Megido prison.

He was arrested last week on suspicion of throwing stones at Israeli soldiers.


Protesters in his home village and in different parts of Hebron hurled stones at Israeli security forces on Sunday as news of his death spread, AFP reported.

Israeli forces responded with tear gas and stun grenades, witnesses said.

And in Gaza City women gathered with flags and posters to protest at the conditions of Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

Palestinian human rights groups have suggested Mr Jaradat died either during or shortly after interrogation.

A statement from the office of Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Saturday expressed "deep sorrow and shock over the martyrdom of prisoner Arafat Jaradat".

As of December 2012, Israel held 4,517 Palestinians in its jails.

Of these 1,031 are being held until the conclusion of legal proceedings, 178 are in administrative detention and 170 are under 18 years of age.
(Source: Israel Prison Service December 2012)

Israeli officials say they use administrative detention when they fear an immediate risk to security or to protect informants.

The Palestinian Prisoners' Club said the number of inmates on open-ended hunger strike had climbed to 11 from four.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21564604
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 01:54 pm
@izzythepush,
So much for the claim that it is just little children throwing stones at Israilis. This guy was the father of two.

I am glad to see that the prisoners are fasting. I think it is important for them to continue this until the bitter end.

All the evidence shows that Israel has the most humane prison system in the world.

The Pal suggestion that the prisoner's death was due to an interrogation is just that (a baseless suggestion).
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 01:59 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
I am glad to see that the prisoners are fasting. I think it is important for them to continue this until the bitter end.


That a terribly anti-Semitic remark, A. You besmirch good Jews the world over.

Quote:
So much for the claim that it is just little children throwing stones at Israilis. This guy was the father of two.


Do you think all those in the Israeli military are unmarried, with no children?
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:07 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
That a terribly anti-Semitic remark


It would not have looked out of place in Der Stürmer. Is it possible that Advocate is running a false-flag operation to besmirch Israeli sympathisers? He's doing a pretty good job.

Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:16 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

JTT wrote:
That a terribly anti-Semitic remark


It would not have looked out of place in Der Stürmer. Is it possible that Advocate is running a false-flag operation to besmirch Israeli sympathisers? He's doing a pretty good job.




The Pals closely resemble the Nazis. They have always targeted innocent Jews, even children and the elderly. And I hate Nazis.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:18 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
And I hate Nazis.


Yet you think like one. How do you explain that?
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:20 pm
@Advocate,
The Palestinians are a nation, pretty much containg all different types of people right across the spectrum, like most nations.

You closely resemble the Nazis, you use racist language, and talk about the Palestinians as if they were less than human, all the time acting as a mouthpiece for Israeli propaganda.
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:25 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
acting as a mouthpiece for Israeli propaganda.


But, as I have noted, a singularly repulsive and stupid one, which makes me wonder if it is deliberate, and he is actually wanting people to think that Israeli supporters are like that. Trolls often work that way, and if ever that word applied to anyone, it is Advocate.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 02:27 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Advocate wrote:
And I hate Nazis.


Yet you think like one. How do you explain that?



That is just a cheap insult. I don't think like a Nazi.
 

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