64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:24 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
oralloy wrote:
You engage in name-calling because you are too stupid to come up with an intelligent argument.


Is that your excuse for doing the same?


Of course not. Note the way I engage in intelligent discourse when there is intelligent discourse to be had.

My excuse is that it justified by the fact that the other person has engaged in name-calling against me, and I am merely engaging in self defense.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I don't think oralboy has that ability to see his own "boners."

He doesn't--that's what makes them even funnier. Laughing
Wilso
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:30 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:


There is a bit of logic lacking in the message. The cause of violent murders is violent murderers.

Whether the murderer uses a gun verses some other weapon is superfluous.
then explain this.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/Wilso38/image_zps9b8a435b.jpg

The choice is, "Guns kill people" or "US society is so ******* diseased that there is no way to stop the random massacres of complete strangers".
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:34 pm
@Wilso,
Most of us understand that the number of guns in our country causes more killings with guns, but the NRA blames everything else. Their myopia and inability to "see" that guns kill is the problem in this country; too many folks think like the president of the NRA.

They're even suggestion that teachers carry guns. They won't admit their own idiocy!

What happens when a teacher accidentally kills one of his/her students?

Well.....he/she wasn't trained properly.

Nuts!@
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:34 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
There are some pretty big assumptions in there. I know that "blame the parents" is convenient, but it's completely off base.


Is the " From the period of 1979 to 2007 the CDC reports 116,385 children under the age of 18 have been killed by firearms." off base?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:35 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
December 21, 2012
Guns, Smoke and Mirrors
By CHARLES M. BLOW

What was that?

Seriously, what was the National Rifle Association performing on Friday? I thought it was going to be a press conference. It wasn’t. I really don’t know how to describe it. A soliloquy of propaganda? A carnival of canards? A herding of scapegoats?

Wayne LaPierre, the N.R.A.’s executive vice president, blamed gun violence in general, and mass shootings in schools in particular, on everything except for the proliferation of brutally efficient, high-capacity guns and his organization’s efforts to resist virtually any restriction on people’s access to those weapons.

It was an appalling display of deflection and deception. So much smoke and so many mirrors.

He blamed American culture, and the media, and video games and even natural disasters. But not a society saturated with guns that spray bullets the way that Super Soakers spray water and have made us the embarrassment of the developed world.

He blamed “every insane killer,” “monsters and the predators,” and “people that are so deranged, so evil, so possessed by voices and driven by demons that no sane person can ever possibly comprehend them.” It is true that America has those types of people, but so do other countries. The difference here is that help can be too hard — and guns too easy — to come by.

The simple truth is that more guns equal more death.

An analysis this year from the Violence Policy Center found that “states with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death.” The report continued, “by contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death.” According to the analysis, Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut had the lowest per capita gun death rates. Each of those states had “strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. On the other hand, “ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi.” Those states had “weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership.”

What’s more, deaths may be a misleading statistic that minimizes the true breadth of gun violence. Another report this year by the Violence Policy Center, using data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that while gun deaths remained relatively flat from 2000 to 2008, the total number of people shot went up nearly 20 percent since 2001. Why the difference between rates of shootings and deaths? “Advances in emergency services — including the 911 system and establishment of trauma centers — as well as better surgical techniques,” the report said.

Just because more people aren’t dying doesn’t mean that more aren’t being shot. And the report points out that survivors’ injuries are “often chronic and disabling.”

LaPierre didn’t talk much about the broad societal implications of all this. Instead, he kept his “solutions” (if you want to call them that) to school safety. His big thought: Put armed guards in school. As LaPierre said: “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

That seems to be quite an apocalyptic gun policy, especially since lax gun regulations pump an ever-increasing number of guns into our country, thereby increasing the chances that “bad guys” will get them.

How about taking the opposite approach and better regulating guns? How about not giving up on so many children that we label “bad boys” so that they grow up without hope or options and become “bad men?”

As the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association said in a joint statement on Thursday:

“Guns have no place in our schools. Period. We must do everything we can to reduce the possibility of any gunfire in schools, and concentrate on ways to keep all guns off school property and ensure the safety of children and school employees.”

The statement continued:

“But this is not just about guns. Long-term and sustainable school safety also requires a commitment to preventive measures. We must continue to do more to prevent bullying in our schools. And we must dramatically expand our investment in mental health services. Proper diagnosis can and often starts in our schools, yet we continue to cut funding for school counselors, school social workers, and school psychologists. States have cut at least $4.35 billion in public mental health spending from 2009 to 2012, according to the National Association of State Mental Health Program Directors. It is well past time to reverse this trend and ensure that these services are available and accessible to those who need our support.”

It’s time to call out the N.R.A.’s sidewinding and get serious about a new set of sensible gun regulations.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html?hp

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:35 pm
@Wilso,
Quote:

The choice is, "Guns kill people" or "US society is so ******* diseased that there is no way to stop the random massacres of complete strangers".


BINGO!

gun control is useless till we start to deal with the more fundamental problems, which have long been ignored and still are. this fixation on gun control is part of a long pattern of problem avoidance.....let's fill our minds with gun violence so that we can avoid the problems of a broken mental health system and mass mental illness.
Wilso
 
  3  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Most of us understand that the number of guns in our country causes more killings with guns, but the NRA blames everything else. Their myopia and inability to "see" that guns kill is the problem in this country; too many folks think like the president of the NRA.

They're even suggestion that teachers carry guns. They won't admit their own idiocy!


How long before you see an ex military security guard, armed with an assault weapon at every school, McDonalds, movie theatre etc? The list goes on and on. I really feel sorry for American kids, having to grow up in such circumstances.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:40 pm
@Wilso,
Quote:
I really feel sorry for American kids, having to grow up in such circumstances.

so far as good reasons to feel sorry for american youth gun culture does not even make the top ten list.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:41 pm
@Wilso,
You,
Quote:
How long before you see an ex military security guard, armed with an assault weapon at every school, McDonalds, movie theatre etc? The list goes on and on. I really feel sorry for American kids, having to grow up in such circumstances.


Thankfully, I hope I'm long gone from this world when this idiocy comes about.
0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:43 pm
@firefly,
firefly when will you understand that this debate won't go in your favor in reality. The majority of Americans will not give up their right to bear arms, it's simple as that. It doesn't take phd's from Harvard to figure that out. The response by NRA is political than anything else, and the the media has jumped on it to appease their passion for anti-gun rant.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:50 pm
@Wilso,
Wilso wrote:
oralloy wrote:
There is a bit of logic lacking in the message. The cause of violent murders is violent murderers.

Whether the murderer uses a gun verses some other weapon is superfluous.


then explain this.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/Wilso38/image_zps9b8a435b.jpg

The choice is, "Guns kill people" or "US society is so ******* diseased that there is no way to stop the random massacres of complete strangers".


It's the latter. Not sure that "diseased" is the right way of looking at it, but more or less it's the latter.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:54 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
It's the latter. Not sure that "diseased" is the right way of looking at it, but more or less it's the latter.


OK so you think the below quote is true, Why?

Quote:
"US society is so ******* diseased that there is no way to stop the random massacres of complete strangers".
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 02:56 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
I don't think oralboy has that ability to see his own "boners."


He doesn't--that's what makes them even funnier. Laughing


That facts are inconvenient to your position, does not mean I've made any errors.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 03:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
fixation on gun control is part of a long pattern of problem avoidance

The NRA's fixation on blocking all attempts at gun control is "is part of a long pattern of problem avoidance."--avoidance of the problem of gun violence in our country.

Quote:
let's fill our minds with gun violence so that we can avoid the problems of a broken mental health system and mass mental illness. ...

If we have "mass mental illness" in this country, we definitely should not have guns so easily available.

Our mental health care systems have little to do with the daily gun violence in this country. Problems with drugs and alcohol account for far more gun violence than does mental illness.

James Holmes, the Aurora movie theater shooter was in psychiatric treatment while he was planning his massacre, and while he was very easily purchasing all of his weapons and ammunition to carry out that massacre.

Adam Lanza had contact with school psychologists all through-out his school years--and a school psychologist was among the people he killed in his rampage. He came from a family affluent enough to access the best mental health care as easily as his mother was able to access and buy all those high power weapons in her home--one of which he turned on her.

The Fort Hood shooter was a psychiatrist, and he walked right into a gun store and easily got whatever he needed to carry out his massacre.

The problem is the easy availability of guns--particularly the guns that facilitate mass murders.

I'm all for better funding and improving our mental health care system, but that won't affect gun violence in this country. We need to better control both the guns and who can get their hands on them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 03:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Most of us understand that the number of guns in our country causes more killings with guns,


Some of us understand that the tool used to commit the murder is superfluous. Murder victims are just as dead no matter what is used to kill them.



cicerone imposter wrote:
but the NRA blames everything else. Their myopia and inability to "see" that guns kill is the problem in this country;


Some of us refuse to "see" something that isn't true.



cicerone imposter wrote:
They're even suggestion that teachers carry guns. They won't admit their own idiocy!


Hardly idiocy. That is what is called "a good idea".

Note that we're very close to the US Supreme Court ruling that all Americans have the right to carry guns whenever they go about in public, even in our largest cities. It is silly to force teachers to be unarmed.



cicerone imposter wrote:
What happens when a teacher accidentally kills one of his/her students?

Well.....he/she wasn't trained properly.

Nuts!@


Proper training is a good thing.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 03:06 pm
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
firefly when will you understand that this debate won't go in your favor in reality. The majority of Americans will not give up their right to bear arms,

I'm not saying that the population should be disarmed--that's the extemist nonsense and paranoid fear that the NRA is trying to promote.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 03:10 pm
@Val Killmore,
You,
Quote:
The majority of Americans will not give up their right to bear arms.

The discussion is not about "right to bear arms." Your myopia is showing. It's about the type of arms that the VP is researching to bring to the President to make into law. The Constitution does not allow any kind of arms ownership by Americans. That's a FACT. Look it up, and educate yourself about this subject.

From SCOTUS.
Quote:
The Court stated that the right to keep and bear arms is subject to regulation, such as concealed weapons prohibitions, limits on the rights of felons and the mentally ill, laws forbidding the carrying of weapons in certain locations, laws imposing conditions on commercial sales, and prohibitions on the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. It stated that this was not an exhaustive list of the regulatory measures that would be presumptively permissible under the Second Amendment.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 03:11 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The simple truth is that more guns equal more death.


No, that is anything but true.



Quote:
An analysis this year from the Violence Policy Center found that “states with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death.” The report continued, “by contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death.” According to the analysis, Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut had the lowest per capita gun death rates. Each of those states had “strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. On the other hand, “ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi.” Those states had “weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership.”


Well it sure must be a relief to all those non-gun fatalities that no gun was used when they were murdered.



Quote:
As the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association said in a joint statement on Thursday:

“Guns have no place in our schools. Period. We must do everything we can to reduce the possibility of any gunfire in schools, and concentrate on ways to keep all guns off school property and ensure the safety of children and school employees.”


They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

If they want to defend against massacres, they are going to have to defend against massacres.

Sticking their heads in the sand.... Not so great at providing a suitable defense.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 23 Dec, 2012 03:14 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
OK so you think the below quote is true, Why?


Likely most of it is due to poverty. We have a lousy social safety net.
 

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