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Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 05:24 pm
@ossobuco,
When my son attended school in Houston, staying with his mother then, I visited him there. I saw walking the halls at least one armed officer. I believe two officers per each school would not be far fetched, until something else can be figured out. A team of two to watch out for each other. The kids in my son's school were not traumatized by the sight. They were in fact rather blasé about it.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 05:31 pm
@Ragman,
Agreed; but it's up to the Supreme Court to update our Constitution. They are laggards in many issues that should have been updated decades ago.

Why most Constitutional attorneys have failed to bring this issue to the SC also proves they are behind the times.

This is the 21st century, and we're still battling gay and lesbian rights to marry, women's rights, and weapons control.
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 05:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
December 15, 2012
Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can’t we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?

The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not that we have lunatics or criminals — all countries have them — but that we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.

Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.

So let’s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn’t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage.

American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips — but lawmakers don’t have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won’t stand up to the N.R.A.?

As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting, “It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun.”

Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can’t we be equally adult about regulating guns?

And don’t say that it won’t make a difference because crazies will always be able to get a gun. We’re not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.

Likewise, don’t bother with the argument that if more people carried guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it’s hard to see what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting.

The tragedy isn’t one school shooting, it’s the unceasing toll across our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can’t kill as many people without reloading.

We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with private sales. Let’s make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.

“We’ve endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,” President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He’s right, but the solution isn’t just to mourn the victims — it’s to change our policies. Let’s see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.

Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation’s conservative prime minister to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The “national firearms agreement,” as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.

The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely to be used in mass shootings.

In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings — but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.

Or we can look north to Canada. It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching for them.

For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.”

Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America’s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.

Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don’t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-do-we-have-the-courage-to-stop-this.html?hp
parados
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:00 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

Why does that matter? Does it make the victims of car accidents any less dead?

No, but it means that cars when put to their primary use kill far less per hour used than guns do.
farmerman
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:02 pm
@firefly,
"Regulating guns" is too filled with toxin. I think that gun crimes like these need to have input from all sides(Why is it I never hear ANY USEFUL ideas from the NRA folks). The only thing they come up with relates to what they DONT want to see.

They need to take part in this whole dialogue,, its their products that are causing the carnage
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

When my son attended school in Houston, staying with his mother then, I visited him there. I saw walking the halls at least one armed officer. I believe two officers per each school would not be far fetched, until something else can be figured out. A team of two to watch out for each other. The kids in my son's school were not traumatized by the sight. They were in fact rather blasé about it.


I'm glad you suggest two officers, edgar, because they would certainly need to watch each other as well as be on the alert for outsiders.

This whole issue isn't really about guns, it's about the kind of culture that traumatizes people to the point of making them homicidal maniacs. It's just like the whole question of drugs. The problem isn't the drug. The problem is the culture which makes a person wish to ruin his life by becoming an addict.
parados
 
  4  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:25 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
We are a culture that glorifies guns and their use which makes traumatized people want to act out with those guns because it gives them power. It makes them strong enough to shoot 6 year olds. We need to change the culture that glorifies guns like we did with drunk driving. Make it socially unacceptable.
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:40 pm
@parados,
I think you're right, parados.

I got tired of reading about nothing other than the shooting in Conn., so I wandered over to the Google news section to see what other news there might be. Here are three of the top headlines:

Ala.police kills suspect after separate shootings
2 dead after shooting at Las Vegas Strip hotel
Okla. teen arrested in school shooting plot

Just sayin'.
firefly
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:41 pm
@farmerman,
The NRA won't budge, but they also don't reflect the views of many gun owners who do want to sensibly address the problem we have with gun violence.

I think we can have the dialogue without the NRA, if need be, but we need more elected officials and representatives who'll display less cow-towing to the NRA, and less fear of the NRA, for that to happen--we need some leadership with guts.

This latest senseless tragic slaughter, of the most innocent and defenseless, may be the tipping point that finally gets a sensible adult dialogue started. At this point, no one can really feel that they, or their children, are really safe anywhere--not in a house of worship, or a college classroom, or a shopping mall, or a commuter train, or a supermarket, or a movie theater, or the workplace, or even in an elementary school. We have to rationally address the problem of gun violence in our society because there is no other sensible option, and even many gun owners and gun enthusiasts have now come to that realization, and that's a hopeful sign.
Lustig Andrei
 
  4  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 06:46 pm
@firefly,
Fagawd'ssake, don't even mention the word"gun" in the halls of power in Washington without saying "NRA" with your next breath. You ain't gonna get anywhere trying to somehow bypass the NRA. They are one of the most -- perhaps the most -- powerful lobbying groups in the history of the practice of lobbying.
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 07:05 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
The NRA hasn't been able to keep Rep. Carolyn McCarthy from being re-elected--she's been serving in Congress since 1997--and she's one of the most fervent advocates of gun control in Washington because her husband was killed, and her son was critically wounded, in the massacre on the Long Island Railroad--and she's vowing action now, she's quite emotional about these latest killings. And the time may now finally be right for her to get more backing.

And, having a member of Congress shot in the head, should help to balance out some of those lobbying efforts by the NRA, because if that incident didn't hit home with the legislators, what will.

The grassroots efforts have already started.
http://wearebetterthanthis.org/

Lustig Andrei
 
  4  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 07:38 pm
@firefly,
I wish you all the luck in the world, firefly, but I think you're dreaming.

It was quite safe for the NRA to allow McCarthy to be re-elected because she is no threat. People express sympathy for her loss but not support for her programs and causes. The NRA folks aren't stupid. They know that by tolerating a certain amount of anti-gun rhetoric they make themselves appear "fair and balanced", just like FoxNews. It's all about apperances. Trust me.
Ragman
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 08:17 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I had CNN on TV to see if there's any updated info about Newtown slayings. My Border Collie jumped up on the sofa, lay down on the remote and muted the sound.

I got the hint and shut it off. Dog Whisperer was an acceptable show for him.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 08:22 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
The NRA folks aren't stupid.


oh they're stupid all right

they can be stupid and politically savvy at the same time
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 08:23 pm
@ehBeth,
Well,of course it depends on how we define "stupid."
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 09:10 pm
@ehBeth,
I don't even know if they are all that politically savvy, unless you equate throwing around huge sums of money with being politically savvy.

Ceili
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 09:11 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:




Why stop there?

Cars kill far more adults and kids then guns. Surely there is a discussion we can have and a law we can pass that will put an end to these senseless deaths.
How much discussion would you like? We already have laws, and a whole system of fines based on the safe handling of vehicles..
There are no such laws for guns.
Then there is the registration, testing, licensing, requirements like a medical exams, insurance,
And gun owner jump through what hoops???

You know what else kills more kids than guns? Their parents and caregivers.
Yeah, you're probably right. I don't know the stats, but I do know that most schools/ some worksplaces have counsellors and teachers or co-workers trained to look for just this sort of thing. Most school districts have programs set up to intervene if they see certain behaviours or patterns, do you, I wonder, have stats on how many murders or abuses have been thwarted, or could have been had there been no guns in the vicinity?
Annually between 1,500 and 2,000 kids die from abuse at the hands of parents and caregivers. Compare that to the approximately 50 per year who die from murder by handgun (and some of those are quite probably at the hands of their parents).
Shouldn't the aim be to prevent them all?
These other sources of childrens' deaths don't seem to generate the same outcry for solutions as do mass killings.
Oh yes they do. Play grounds are now a completely different landscape. Every mall, school, carnival in the world has cameras now and an emergency procedure if a kid goes missing.
One reason is that they don't get the same degree of media attention as a mass murder, and, frankly, they don't have the same viceral impact on the public.
Yes they do. A child's murder is usually a front page item.
They are all equally tragic though.

The difference seems to be that when it comes to mass shootings, a lot of people think there is a quick and easy fix.

No they don't. People don't think that at all. Every example you gave above was wrong. Every single death by any other means is investigated fully. In car accidents, arson, workplace, poison, even natural causes are studied and evaluated.
This is where we get back to the law. If I step on the brake and plow into a crowd. The investigation goes all the way up the food channel. Don't believe me, every car now has a chip. It records everything you do, you can't lie your way out of a fatality. If you're guilty, the investigation into the car ends now.
If the chip backs up what you say, then the investigation goes into why the car malfunctioned. Cars now self diagnose. If it doesn't pick up a fatal flaw, they tend to crap out en masse, whatever the problem is and eventually prove, that as in the case above, the brakes do fail. The car manufacturer is now liable.
Cars are now safer for two reasons, people demanded the changes and liability.
If a doctor doesn't refuse to suspend a driver who shouldn't be on the road, he's liable. And so on...
Not so with guns. A dealer can sell to anyone. Gun manufactures can produce far more than they can sell legally in the US and sell them to anyone they want, or so it seems. Most of the illegal guns in the N. American, never mind the world, are Made in the USA. And nobody is is liable. Ever.
Doesn't seem fair does it?


OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 09:34 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

"Regulating guns" is too filled with toxin.
Yea, like "regulating" opinion is too toxic. Both have NO JURISDICTION.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 09:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Agreed; but it's up to the Supreme Court to update our Constitution.
They are laggards in many issues that should have been updated decades ago.
The USSC has authority to APPLY
the Constitution; to change it, is corruption.





David
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  3  
Sat 15 Dec, 2012 09:53 pm
@Ceili,
On that note...
After a thorough investigation big vans, 12 seaters were banned by schools in Nova Scotia. Why? A bunch of kids, basketball players were killed in a devastating accident, driving down treacherous roads . It was discovered they would have been safer in separate vehicles, in other modes of traffic, and an entire team or class would never again be wiped out.
This will probably become law in all of Canada, as it the case above was not and isolated accident.
People care. That's why workplaces are safer, fewer accidents..
I know that if certain places on highways are accident prone changes are made, usually subtle, and sometimes a few tweaks make all the difference in saving lives. In a city it may mean, changing the frequency of lights, adding a turning lane, more lighting, policing, speed/red light cameras, painting lines, pushing back street advertisements or tree branches, changing parking schedules, it may result in better street clearing of ice, or better sewer systems to drain rain water.
What if any changes or meaningful compensation has the NRA or other gun organizations done to actually be accountable to people, it's products victims? Even Tobacco is feeling getting it's comeuppance. But Big Guns??
They've spread lies to the gullible and people have bought it hook line and sinker. Guns do not protect they just promote and propagate a more violent criminal and culture. Owners are more likely to die by the bullet than non gun owners. The element of suspense, fear, is greater than any training. Just ask JFK and Reagan's bodyguards. The idea of the home grown hero with a gun is the stuff of hollywood. Has there ever been a case, other than cops? Anyone, an armed nobody, who has ever successfully shot and killed a rampaging monster?
Natural instinct is to duck and run. When you fight, especially without training, natural human reaction is to run on adrenaline, till that store runs out and then you get confused, sluggish. You get tunnel vision and could unerringly shoot a bystander.
Statistics prove over and over again, guns kill a lot of people in the USA. Isn't it time there was some real discussion and concessions. Why are the monstrous guns/weapons of today barely regulated, unlike every other aspect of your lives? Why are there not even the simplest of regulations, like say a mental health evaluation? Why are so many gun owners not locking away their guns? Why are people allowed to buy an arsenal with out it raising an eyebrow? Why are so many cartel and gang members brandishing american made guns? How do criminals get their guns? They aren't all stolen, are they? Could they be? Why are so many guns ending up on our streets? Where are the restrictions placed by the manufacturers, the wholesalers, the retail outlets, the courts, the government? Is is true when guns go missing Army bases they treat it like a lost shipment of soup? Why aren't more people asking why????
So many needless deaths, WHY? And why don't gun owners care?? Could it be you've lost the ability to enforce the rules you give face value to? After all, if you armed everyone including the insane, who's running the asylum?
 

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