64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:19 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I have the Constitution and the NRA and the Supreme Court on my side.


That didn't work out too well for a lot of Southern folk trying to maintain slavery.

Though it must be noted that it took Americans almost a century to be dragged into a "civil" society.

It also didn't work out too well for the teetotalers. That's what amendments do, the amend the constitution.

The thing that I enjoy most about all this is how it will drive you paranoid freaks/doomsday preppers into a frenzy. You lot are going to be digging spider holes all over the country. Maybe there's a new business venture here - mini space ships to help you keep your guns.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:19 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
You must have missed this, Oralboy.


You'd be a lot more pleasant if you didn't engage in name-calling.



Quote:
Is the Second Amendment Absolute?
By ANDREW ROSENTHAL

...

Even if you believe the Second Amendment grants each American an individual right to own a gun, which remains a matter of some debate, it does not follow logically, legally or constitutionally that this right is absolute. No right granted by the Constitution is totally exempt from limitations.


Since I've never claimed that the Second Amendmnet is exempt from limitations (in fact, the core of my position directly refers to the fact that it has limitations), I can't really see how that article has any bearing on anything I've said.

Unless you are showing me this article because you think it reinforces my position???
0 Replies
 
Val Killmore
 
  -2  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:19 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Your chosen avatar is a sufficient explanation.


Quite the shallow British cum, aren't we?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:28 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Arm up, train and be prepared to defend yourself and others because as this democratic downgrade
worsens there will come a time when the government will not be able to help us, we will be on your own.


Here is a little history lesson concerning when a city government that was no longer offering protection to the public in fact became a partner with the lawless elements.

Criminal gangs was in charge of the city of San_Francisco as a matter of fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Committee_of_Vigilance

WHEREAS it has become apparent to the citizens of San Francisco, that there is no security for life and property, either under the regulations of society as it at present exists, or under the law as now administered; Therefore the citizens, whose names are hereunto attached, do unit themselves into an association for the maintenance of the peace and good order of society, and the preservation of the lives and property of the citizens of San Francisco, and do bind ourselves, each unto the other, to do and perform every lawful act for the maintenance of law and order, and to sustain the laws when faithfully and properly administered; but we are determined that no thief, burglar, incendiary or assassin, shall escape punishment, either by the quibbles of the law, the insecurity of prisons. the carelessness or corruption of the police, or a laxity of those who pretend to administer justice. ”

It boasted a membership of 700 and operated parallel to, and in defiance of, the duly constituted city government. Committee members used its headquarters for the interrogation and incarceration of suspects, who were denied the benefits of due process. The Committee engaged in policing, investigating disreputable boarding houses and vessels, deporting immigrants, and parading its militia. In total, four people were hanged by the Committee; one was whipped (a common punishment at that time); fourteen were deported to Australia; fourteen were informally ordered to leave California; fifteen were handed over to public authorities; and forty-one were discharged. The 1851 Committee of Vigilance was dissolved during the September elections, but its executive members continued to meet into 1853.[2] Among those killed were John Jenkens, an Australian from Sydney, accused of burglary, who was hanged on June 10, 1851; James Stuart, also from Sydney, accused of murder, hanged on July 11, 1851; and Samuel Whittaker and Robert McKenzie, associates of Stuart accused of "various heinous crimes", hanged on August 24, 1851. The lynching of Whittaker and McKenzie occurred three days after a standoff between the Committee and the nascent police force trying to protect the prisoners; the Committee nabbed Whittaker and McKenzie after storming the jail during Sunday church services.[3]

The Committee offered a $5,000 reward for the capture of anyone found guilty of arson, and committee members patrolled the streets at night to watch for fires. After these actions were taken, fires in San Francisco diminished noticeably.

[edit] 1856
1856 Committee of Vigilance medallion inscribed: "Organized 9th June 1851. Reorganized 14th May 1856. Be Just and Fear Not." The eye symbol was borrowed from Freemasonry, but in its 1856 vigilante context conveyed surveillance as a means of social discipline, not the Masonic meaning of scientific and aesthetic knowledge. Note that Lady Justice is not blindfolded.[2]The Committee of Vigilance was reorganized on 14 May 1856 by many of the leaders from the first one and adopted an amended version of the 1851 constitution.[2] Unlike the earlier Committee, and the vigilante tradition generally, the 1856 Committee was concerned with not only civil crimes but also politics and political corruption.[2] The catalyst for the Committee was a murder, in the guise of a political duel in which James P. Casey shot opposition newspaper editor James King of William. The 1856 Committee was also much larger, claiming 6,000 in its ranks. The 1856 Committee of Vigilance dissolved on 11 August 1856, and marked the occasion with a “Grand Parade.”[2] Political power in San Francisco was transferred to a new political party established by the vigilantes, the People's Party, which ruled until 1867 and was eventually absorbed into the Republican Party. The vigilantes had thus succeeded in their objective of usurping power from the Democratic Party machine that hitherto dominated civic politics in the city.[4] Notable people included William Tell Coleman, Martin J. Burke, San Francisco mayor Henry F. Teschemacher, and San Francisco's first chief of police James F. Curtis.

Vigilante headquarters in 1856 consisted of assembly halls, meeting rooms, a military kitchen and armoury, an infirmary, and prison cells, all of which were fortified with gunny sacks and cannons.[2] Four people were officially executed again in 1856, but the death toll also includes James “Yankee” Sullivan, an Irish immigrant and professional boxer who killed himself after being terrorized and detained in a Vigilante cell.[2][5] The 1856 Committee also engaged in policing, investigations, and secret trials, but it far exceeded its predecessor in audacity and rebelliousness. Most notably, it seized a federal shipment of armaments intended for the state militia and tried the chief justice of the California Supreme Court.[2] The Committee’s authority, however, was bolstered by almost all militia units in the city, including the California Guards.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:31 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
My guess is that a socially isolated 20 year old might be looking at a lot of porn.


We got someone bringing in the subject of Porn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A lot of people seems to be trying to used this event for their own pet hobbyhorse beside the anti-gun nuts.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:31 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
It also didn't work out too well for the teetotalers. That's what amendments do, the amend the constitution.


There aren't great odds of even getting Congress to pass an unconstitutional ban on assault weapons with the NRA breathing down their neck.

The odds of the Second Amendment being repealed with the NRA watching are exactly zero.



JTT wrote:
The thing that I enjoy most about all this is how it will drive you paranoid freaks/doomsday preppers into a frenzy. You lot are going to be digging spider holes all over the country. Maybe there's a new business venture here - mini space ships to help you keep your guns.


Even if they manage to get this unconstitutional monstrosity past Congress, the courts will just strike it down.

No need to bury things.


By the way, I know a guy who doesn't bury guns on his property, but he buries a lot of objects that sort of look to a metal detector like they could be buried guns.

He does it just in case the government ever ends up searching his property for buried guns, so he can mess with their minds. He thinks it's pretty funny.
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:33 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
He does it just in case the government ever ends up searching his property for buried guns, so he can mess with their minds. He thinks it's pretty funny.


Sounds just like those paranoid freaks that I mentioned. Is he also a nutcase doomsday prepper? Now there's a group of people who are more than a few bricks short of a load.

oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:36 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
I found this article very interesting, and it points out the huge stake the gun manufacturers have in promoting and selling assault weapons. The NRA just fronts for the gun manfacturers, in return for receiving lots of money from them.


In other words, nothing in the article is true.



firefly wrote:
these weapons designed for mass murder,


The addition of a pistol grip on a rifle does not mean it is designed for mass murder.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:46 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
oralloy wrote:
He does it just in case the government ever ends up searching his property for buried guns, so he can mess with their minds. He thinks it's pretty funny.


Sounds just like those paranoid freaks that I mentioned.


No. He doesn't bury any real items. He just tries to bury things that will look suspicious on a metal detector, because he thinks it is funny that he could be messing with someone's mind if they are one day searching his property for buried guns.

It's sort of a practical joke.



JTT wrote:
Is he also a nutcase doomsday prepper?


I doubt it.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  4  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 08:54 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

The thing that I enjoy most about all this is how it will drive you paranoid freaks/doomsday preppers into a frenzy. You lot are going to be digging spider holes all over the country. Maybe there's a new business venture here - mini space ships to help you keep your guns.


Manufacturers of assault weapons directly advertise to survivalists or preppers. I agree that these people are dangerously paranoid.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 09:02 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Quote:
To stoke sales, the gun industry aggressively markets military-style weapons to the consumer market, using catalogs, websites and advertisements in magazines that evoke patriotic themes or stoke fears of violent crime, economic collapse and civil unrest.


Well my gosh, was anyone even aware of that?


That gun manufacturers print ads advertising their products?

That's not very unusual.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 09:19 pm
@Val Killmore,
So, your idea about "bad parenting" is nothing but blather from you.

You can't even provide what "bad parenting" is, much less offer any constructive answer to your own posts.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 09:22 pm
@firefly,
firefly, today it was reported that Jack Pinto was shot 11 times. It keeps getting more and more horrible as details leak out.
firefly
 
  3  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 09:35 pm
@glitterbag,
I think the Medical Examiner said all of the children were shot multiple times.

The whole thing is just plain horrible. I can't imagine how awful it must have been for the first responders to walk into that scene of all those bloodied and dead children. Even just thinking about it is terrible.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 09:42 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

We got someone bringing in the subject of Porn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A lot of people seems to be trying to used this event for their own pet hobbyhorse beside the anti-gun nuts.

boomerang was only surmising what might have triggered an argument or altercation between Adam and his mother and why he might have smashed his computer.

Why do you think boomer's speculation reflects some " pet hobbyhorse" of hers? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that a mother might argue with her 20 year old son over the issue of his viewing porn? Or that he'd smash his computer so downloaded porn, of some sort, couldn't be found by law enforcement after he carried out his shooting?





oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 09:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
December 19, 2012
Is the Second Amendment Absolute?
By ANDREW ROSENTHAL

Opponents of gun control—of even the most reasonable, basic safeguards like background checks or limits on the size of ammunition clips—were silent directly after the Newtown shooting. But they are starting to emerge from hiding, and most of what they’ve had to say suggests they’ve learned little, if anything, from the killings.

Take Larry Pratt, the executive director of Gun Owners of America, who was on the Piers Morgan show last night arguing that the only reasonable response to gun violence is to arm yourself—in other words to have more guns in more places. Even schools.

There is no gun violence in the rural and other less-populous areas of the country, he said, because guns are readily available there and people are free to tote them around.

“We only have the problem in our cities and unhappily in our schools, where people like you have been able to put laws on the books that prevent people from defending themselves,” he said.


So the silly delusion that we were going to "just sit back and let you guys violate the Constitution" is starting to crack?


Note the fact that we are only a year or two from having the US Supreme Court rule that Americans have the right to carry guns when they go about in public, even in our largest cities.

"More guns" is coming and there's nothing you can do about it.



Quote:
In addition to the all-guns-all-the-time argument, we are starting to hear opponents of gun control cite the Second Amendment as the impermeable barrier to change. In Ohio, Gov. John Kasich, a Republican, announced that he would sign a bill that would allow people to take guns into the statehouse garage, and make it easier to carry concealed weapons.

“I think as we move forward, whatever we do, we don’t want to erode the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens,” he said.

This argument is not as loony as the one that Mr. Pratt made, but in some ways it is more insidious. I don’t believe there is any way to curb the epidemic of gun violence unless we to some degree “erode the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens.”


Guess you're out of luck then, because you aren't allowed to do that.

But don't worry. People are just as dead if they are murdered without a gun, so your inability to change the type of murder weapon makes no real difference.



Quote:
Even if you believe the Second Amendment grants each American an individual right to own a gun, which remains a matter of some debate,


No, that is very well settled.

(However, the Second Amendment does not grant. It protects a preexisting right.)



Quote:
it does not follow logically, legally or constitutionally that this right is absolute. No right granted by the Constitution is totally exempt from limitations.


No one said otherwise.

The fact remains, there is no legitimate reason for banning pistol grips and flash suppressors, and therefore doing so will not pass muster with Rational Basis Review (to say nothing of sterner standards of scrutiny).



Quote:
many of the same politicians who champion an absolutist understanding of the Second Amendment tolerate the indefinite military detention of alleged (not proven) terrorists. Just yesterday Charlie Savage reported that lawmakers charged with merging the House and Senate versions of the National Defense Authorization Act dropped a provision that would have barred the military from holding American citizens indefinitely, without trial.


If you fight for the enemy in a war, and you are captured, you'll be held as a POW. That is hardly unusual.

And no criminal charges are required for holding POWs. Also nothing unusual.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 10:10 pm
@oralloy,
Here is the Second Amendment interpretation of the Supreme Court.
Quote:
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.[137][138]
(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.[138]
Other legal summaries of the court's findings in this case are similar.[139][140][141][142][143][144]
firefly
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 10:14 pm
@firefly,
@reply all

All the speculation that Lanza's mother was trying to get him committed to a psych hospital, and that set him off so he killed her, and then went on his rampage, really seems unlikely.

Nancy Lanza had gone away on a 2 1/2 day vacation just prior to the shooting, leaving Adam home alone--something it is unlikely she would have done if he was so disturbed that hospitalization was an issue, or that she would have done if she didn't trust him to be alone for any reason. And she left him home alone with all those guns.

She was away from Tuesday until Thursday evening. Her son shot her, possibly while she was sleeping in bed, Friday morning before he headed for Sandy Hook elementary school.
Quote:
Nancy Lanza had just arrived home early Thursday evening, following a two-night getaway to Bretton Woods, NH, according to Headline News.

She checked into the Omni Mount Washington Resort at 12:10 p.m. on Tuesday, Dec. 11, and checked out at 12:27 p.m. on Thursday, HLN said.

It’s 290 miles — nearly a five-hour drive — between Bretton Woods, NH, and Newtown, Conn.

Lanza had visited Bretton Woods before and had always driven herself there, according to HLN.

She had chatted with friends during her two nights in New Hampshire and appeared to be in good spirits, the cable news network reported.

Nancy Lanza often took mini-vacations by herself, friends said. She trusted leaving Adam alone, but didn't want him cooking, so she always prepared all his meals before her trips.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/massacre_left_killer_adam_lanza_ryNR31OfvVKAMm6Aw1y8FO


Ragman
 
  2  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 10:48 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

@reply all

All the speculation that Lanza's mother was trying to get him committed to a psych hospital, and that set him off so he killed her, and then went on his rampage, really seems unlikely.


All this speculation?

I don't see why you think that the post that was provided was speculation? It was reported (cut and pasted Huffington news article) directly from the link verbatim as was reported by a family friend to a reporter. It was spoken to this friend by the mother.

I see no motivation to create a falsehood by the friend. Are you doubting the journalistic integrity? You have also provided quite a few links from Huffington yourself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive_n_2329508.html
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 19 Dec, 2012 11:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Here is the Second Amendment interpretation of the Supreme Court.
Quote:
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.[137][138]
(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.[138]
Other legal summaries of the court's findings in this case are similar.[139][140][141][142][143][144]



None of that alters the reality that there is no legitimate reason to ban a pistol grip or a flash suppressor, and thus doing so does not pass muster with Rational Basis Review (to say nothing of sterner standards of scrutiny that the courts may well choose to apply).

But be real sure that the hi-cap magazine ban is inextricably linked with the assault weapons ban. Make absolutely make sure that there is zero chance of severability. Twisted Evil
 

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