64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
parados
 
  3  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 02:29 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:


Howabout gasoline and hair dyes and fingernail polish remover and the million and one other materials that can be used and had been used to mass murder people and in greater numbers then firearms Firefly?

Why don't you name a single material that you think has killed more people than guns in the US and then we can discuss if you live in reality or not.
BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 02:31 pm
@parados,
Quote:
It's too bad any call for changing gun safety features like we have mandated car safety is met with such resistance.


The life cycle of cars are measure in years and the life cycle of guns are measure in many many decades so any improvement would take generations to work their way through the system unlike cars.

Safety feature however are improving in guns designs.

Then gun trigger lock to one person technology is not ready for prime time if that what you mean.
parados
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 02:33 pm
@BillRM,
When you won't even accept that certain features may make a gun safer, it's hard to have a discussion.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 02:46 pm
@parados,
Quote:
When you won't even accept that certain features may make a gun safer, it's hard to have a discussion


When a feature can not as yet be depended on and may cause a firearm not to work when needed it is not a safety feature that anyone would care for.

The police would love a safety feature that would lock a gun so no one could take it away from an officer and then shot him with is and as soon as such technology can be depended on we will shortly see it coming into service with the police.
parados
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 02:58 pm
@BillRM,
We don't let cars drive 200mph?
Why do we need guns that can fire 200 bullets per minute?
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:04 pm
@ehBeth,


America is shocked by the acceptance of a high murder rate by Obama - and the expressed value of his own reelection above human life

<shrug>

It's the Obama liberal democratic way.


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:09 pm
@BillRM,
Frank Apisa (Post 5229274)
Quote:
Quote:
Then why is that so often people say "the guy was just a normal guy?"

BillRM
Quote:
Name me one repeat one of the mass murders of late that could be said of repeat give me one name.


Nidal Malik Hasan, a U.S. Army Major serving as a psychiatrist, who is the Fort Hood shooter--he killed 13 people (12 soldiers and 1 civilian) and wounded 29 others, after randomly firing at fellow service members in his workplace, the Soldier Readiness Processing Center.

Sometimes we don't decide that someone clearly isn't "a normal guy" until after he goes on a shooting rampage. The people working with Dr. Hasan, and his superiors, and a Joint Terrorism Task Force, did not suspect he posed an imminent terrorist threat or a threat of committing mass murder. His behavior, as he prepared for his massacre, in the months, and weeks, and days, prior to his rampage did not raise red flags among those working and serving next to him. He didn't send any clear signals of mental abnormality or what he intended to do--except for his purchase of a firearm and ammunition, and his practicing using it. He was functioning in a "normal" manner from outward appearances.
Quote:
According to pretrial testimony, Hasan entered the Guns Galore store in Killeen on July 31, 2009, and purchased the FN Five-seven semi-automatic pistol that he was to use in the attack at Fort Hood. According to Army Specialist William Gilbert, a regular customer at the store, Hasan entered the store and asked for "the most technologically advanced weapon on the market and the one with the highest standard magazine capacity." Hasan was allegedly asked how he intended to use the weapon, but said that he wanted the most advanced handgun with the largest magazine capacity. The three people with Hasan—Gilbert, the store manager, and an employee—all agreed upon the FN Five-seven pistol. Gilbert owned one of the pistols and spent an hour describing its operation and effects to Hasan.

When the conversation ended, Hasan left the store, saying he needed to research the weapon. He returned to purchase the gun the next day, and visited the store on a weekly basis to buy extra magazines, along with hundreds of rounds of 5.7×28mm SS192 and SS197SR ammunition.In the weeks prior to the attack, Hasan visited an outdoor shooting range in Florence, where he allegedly became adept at hitting silhouette targets at distances of up to 100 yards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

And, on November 5, 2009, Hasan made use of his weapon and ammunition.
BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:10 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Why don't you name a single material that you think has killed more people than guns in the US and then we can discuss if you live in reality or not.


So you wish to admit that in the area of random mass murders guns are down the list and we should go to all murders instead?

Let see mass murders in the US begin with boxcuters. then homemake explosives, then gasoline and then evil assault weapons
BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:14 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Nidal Malik Hasan, a U.S. Army Major serving as a psychiatrist, who is the Fort Hood shooter--he killed 13 people (12 soldiers and 1 civilian) and wounded 29 others, after randomly firing at fellow service members in his workplace, the Soldier Readiness Processing Center.


Sorry bad examples as a lot of people in the military expressed concern about the gentleman way before the shottings and no one in the chain of command have the balls to risk begin charge with going after him for his religion believes instead of his behaviors.

Lot of red flags flying all over the place.
firefly
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:23 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
and some of us are also shocked by the acceptance of that high murder rate by many Americans - and the expressed value of gun ownership above human life


Nicolas Kristof echoed that same thought in yesterday's NY Times.

Quote:
January 16, 2013
Lessons From Guns and a Goose
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

When I travel abroad and talk to foreigners about the American passion for guns, people sometimes express a conclusion that horrifies me: in America, life is cheap.

President Obama announced a terrific series of gun-control measures to show that we do indeed hold life dear. But the fate of these proposals ultimately will depend on centrist Americans who are torn. They’re troubled by the toll of guns but also think that it’s reassuring to have a Glock when you hear a floorboard creak downstairs.

So, to those of you wavering, let me tell you the story of a goose.

I grew up on a farm in Yamhill, Ore., a rural town where nearly every home had guns. My dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday, and I then took an N.R.A. safety course.

I understand the heartland’s affection for guns, and I share that sense of familiarity. A farm needs a gun or two to deal with coyotes with a fondness for lamb, and, frankly, it’s also fun to shoot.

But all those guns didn’t make us safer. Take the time we gave a goose to a neighbor.

That goose would wander off to a different neighbor’s property and jump into the watering trough for his sheep. The sheep owner was furious that the water would be fouled, and one time he was so fed up he threatened to shoot the goose.

He was probably just making a point, but, since he had a gun handy, he pulled it out and aimed it in the direction of the goose. Seeing this, the goose-owner (who had come to fetch his bird) saw the need to protect his property and pulled out his own gun. They faced off — over a goose!

Our neighbors were both good, admirable, law-abiding people, but their guns had led to a dangerous confrontation. The N.R.A. might say that guns don’t kill people, geese kill people, but in the absence of firearms they wouldn’t have menaced each other with axes or hammers.

The sheep-owner’s wife eventually persuaded the men to stand down. Good sense prevailed, the goose survived, and so did the neighbors.

But I think of that episode because it underscores the role that guns too often play in our society: an instrument not of protection but of escalation.

Lovers throw plates at each other and then one indignantly reaches for a gun — maybe just to scare the other. And then, too often, something goes wrong.

One study, reported in Southern Medical Journal in 2010, found that a gun is 12 times more likely to result in the death of a household member or guest than in the death of an intruder. Another study in 1993 found that gun ownership creates nearly a threefold risk of a homicide in the owner’s household.

Far too many Americans are like Nancy Lanza, who may have thought that her guns would make her safer, and then was killed with them. Something similar happened in Yamhill, where a troubled teenager took a gun that his grandmother owned and shot her dead. The N.R.A. is right that most guns are used safely, but it’s also true that guns are more likely to cause tragedies than to avert them.

President Obama said that there have been 900 violent gun deaths since Sandy Hook, but that was a rare error. He perhaps was speaking of gun homicides only, but he should also include gun suicides — which are even more common and certainly qualify as violent firearms deaths.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calculates that each year there are more than 11,000 gun homicides and nearly 19,000 gun suicides. That’s 30,000 firearms deaths a year in the United States. At that rate, there have already been some 2,500 violent gun deaths since Sandy Hook.

David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard, says that having a gun at home increases the risk of suicide in that household by two to four times.

To reduce auto deaths, we’ve taken a public health approach that you might call “car control” — driver’s licenses, air bags, seat belts, auto registration. The result is a steady decline in vehicle fatalities so that some time soon gun deaths are likely to exceed traffic fatalities, for the first time in modern American history.

There are no magic solutions to the gun carnage in America. But in the same spirit as what we’ve accomplished to make driving safer, President Obama has crafted careful, modest measures that won’t solve America’s epidemic of gun violence but should reduce it.

If we could reduce gun deaths by one-quarter, that would be 7,500 lives saved a year. Unless life in America really is cheap, that’s worth it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/opinion/kristof-lessons-from-guns-and-a-goose.html?hp

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:23 pm
@BillRM,
What about the "one name" I offered, Bill???
BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:28 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What about the "one name" I offered, Bill???


I need to do the research that go beyond the news story that I had seen so far will get back to you.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:41 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Lot of red flags flying all over the place.

No. there were no red flags about Hasan's behavior in the weeks prior to the Fort Hood shooting--he was not functioning, or behaving, in an abnormal manner. Except, of course, for the fact he easily acquired a gun and loads of ammo--and he wanted a particular type of gun and loads of ammo. But you don't consider such gun-buying behavior a sign of abnormality. He wasn't acting in a particularly unstable manner, he wasn't overly aggressive, he wasn't voicing threats, or talking about the need for violent action, or killing anyone, in the weeks and days prior to his rampage.
Quote:
and no one in the chain of command have the balls to risk begin charge with going after him for his religion believes instead of his behaviors

Are you now suggesting that we should go after people for their religious beliefs? Or unpopular opinions? But, aren't you the one who told Frank the government shouldn't go after, or discriminate against people who want to buy guns, based on their beliefs or opinions--even if they are enraged and threatening the government? Have you now changed your tune about that?
BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:45 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
He was probably just making a point, but, since he had a gun handy, he pulled it out and aimed it in the direction of the goose. Seeing this, the goose-owner (who had come to fetch his bird) saw the need to protect his property and pulled out his own gun. They faced off — over a goose!

Our neighbors were both good, admirable, law-abiding people, but their guns had led to a dangerous confrontation. The N.R.A. might say that guns don’t kill people, geese kill people, but in the absence of firearms they wouldn’t have menaced each other with axes or hammers.


Let see neither of them was very law abiding as neither gun should have legally come out in the open.

As I already stated on this website even when a woman got into my face acting in an insane manner and telling me she was going to kill me and follow me home and kill me she never had a clue that I were armed.

As far as such emotional trigger fights the result would more then likely be the same with a knife or down in Miami two machetes.

There is nothing special about firearms in such situations.
parados
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:47 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
So you wish to admit that in the area of random mass murders guns are down the list and we should go to all murders instead?

We have had this conversation before and your stats are not factual. You failed to admit it then.



BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:53 pm
@parados,
Quote:
We have had this conversation before and your stats are not factual. You failed to admit it then.


Name me one mass shooting that killed more people then 911, the Oklahoma City bombing, or the after hour NYC club killings of 97 people using gasolines!!!!!
firefly
 
  3  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:57 pm
@BillRM,
Kristof's main point whizzed right over your head, like a speeding bullet.

You do seem to be one of those who values gun ownership above the value of human life.

You're like the mother of the serial killer who cries, "But he's such a good boy!". Your defense of guns, and denial of our societal problem with gun violence, reflects as much connection to reality as what's expressed by that mother.

Joe Nation already pointed out that you can't have a conversation when only one side is listening. Which is why there is no real conversation possible with you--you just keep chanting, "But they're such good guns!"

BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 03:59 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
No. there were no red flags about Hasan's behavior in the weeks prior to the Fort Hood shooting--he was not functioning, or behaving, in an abnormal manner


Bullshit the facts are on the internet and there was people that wished to get him out of the military and even some of his patients was complaining about him.

Red flags all over the place.
BillRM
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 04:06 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Or unpopular opinions?


When the opinion of an acting military man is that the terrorists are freedom fighters I would not care to have him watching my back when dealing with these freedom fighters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of similar to having an American Nazis member as an officer in the US military during WW2.

Oh when a man religion justify the killings of his fellow soldiers I also would have problem with his religion believes also.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Thu 17 Jan, 2013 04:06 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Bullshit the facts are on the internet and there was people that wished to get him out of the military and even some of his patients was complaining about him.

Red flags all over the place.

They wanted to get him out of the military just before his rampage? They turned down his request not to be deployed to Afghanistan--they not only wanted him in the military, they wanted him in a combat zone.

So, post those alleged facts that were red flags in the immediate period prior to his rampage.

Lots of patients complain about their psychiatrists.

Lots of people think terrorists are freedom fighters. Like some of the people now threatening the U.S. government over the gun control issue--I think they're terrorists, because they are threatening violence against a duly elected civilian government, but they think they're "freedom fighters". What really makes these gun nut "freedom fighters" any different than Islamic extremists?
 

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