64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 02:52 am
@izzythepush,
Yeah...I think it is ridiculous myself for people to keep arguing about their second amendment rights being attacked...with conjunction to what the people of New York have proposed...When we are talking about military style killing machines....

No one wants to take away all rights for all people...We just want stricter gun laws...

I do not understand how anyone can not be in favor of that...Even gun owners...Because then they realize it is a privilege to have a gun...And it only makes us safer....
McTag
 
  4  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 02:58 am
@blueveinedthrobber,

Quote:
what bullshit


Too complimentary by far.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  4  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 03:03 am
@oralloy,

Quote:
You are trying to violate my Constitutional rights.


Which part of Amendment don't you understand? It's not written in stone for all time. When something needs fixing, time to Amend it.

And in passing, what is your relationship with the local chapter of your well-regulated militia?
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 03:13 am
Why would a civilian need a military style killing machine? I mean really think about it...If we can't stop that...What the hell is in our future?

Why would anyone lobby to not amend that? Seriously....
McTag
 
  4  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 03:16 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
That's a good question, which I have asked before. (nobody replied)
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 03:26 am
@McTag,
You want to know why mate? Because there really is no legit answer as to not amending it...There is no defense why those weapons are legal to posses...Not for civilians...They have one purpose...Kill at a very, very high efficient rate....No one would even need that much gun...to hunt game...Or kill an intruder with that much power....Or whatever way they lobby they need them...And hopefully more will be done very soon...

BillRM
 
  -1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 05:24 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
Why would a civilian need a military style killing machine?


My my no matter how many times and in how must details and by how many people explained that a AR16 is no such thing as a killing machine anymore then any other repeating rifle you and people like you are still keep singing the same nonsense.

In fact watching the talking heads on TV every once in a which someone will open his mouth to state that a assault rifle is no difference from other repeating rifles and the other talking heads can not seem to hear the comment and just go on with the same silliness.

It almost like trying to deal with religion true believers where facts and logic does not matter at all.

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 05:44 am
@firefly,
Quote:
What about people who have an Order of Protection lodged against them?

Should they be allowed to purchase a gun?

Do you know how often guns are used to shoot the partner or spouse in an act of domestic violence--and that spouse/partner victim is usually female.


They sadly give orders of protection out like candy as it is a great way to get the upper hands in a divorce by getting the man order out of the family home and the custody of the children awarded to the woman for the time being.

So yes Firefly if there are real indication that a man had harmed a woman or threaten to do so then having the man give up his firearms to his lawyer or the police until the matter is settle is fine however such orders need to be tighten up and meaningful punishment given to women who knowingly misused that process.

Speaking of killing mates there is a woman a small woman as a matter of fact who in now on trial being shown on court TV for killing her must larger boyfriend using a knife so killing even killing by a small woman of a large man does not require a gun.

Footnote the one gun shot seems to had happen after the man was dead from the 27 knife wounds.



Quote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256445/Murder-trial-woman-stabbed-shot-ex-boyfriend-won-American-Idol-prison-contest-win-dinner-cellmates-awaiting-trial.html

Woman who 'stabbed and shot ex-boyfriend' won American Idol prison contest and a turkey dinner prize for her and cellmates while awaiting trial for his murder•She sang O'Holy Night, beating 50 inmates to win a turkey dinner prize
•Trial started yesterday. She could become fourth death row woman in U.S•Jodi Arias 'was obsessed with ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander', 30
•He was stabbed 27 times and was shot in the head in June 2008

•Police found naked photos of her on his camera taken on day of his murder




Quote:
http://www.menweb.org/youngres.htm

The case of Harry Stewart, a lay minister who was convicted of violating a restraining order granted to his former wife and went to jail earlier this month rather than enter a counseling program that required him to admit being a batterer, has galvanized fathers' rights advocates in Massachusetts. It has also drawn long-overdue attention to an issue these activists have been raising for a long time: abuses of civil rights and of the legal system stemming from a well-intentioned campaign to protect women from domestic abuse.

Stewart says that, far from abusing his wife, he was the victim of her violence. (In 1997, he was featured in a TV story on battered husbands.) He has never been charged with assault. His crime consisted of this: When bringing his 5-year-old son back to the mother after visitation, he walked the boy to the apartment building and opened the front door. The restraining order forbade him to exit his car near his ex-wife's residence.

Unfortunately, Stewart's case is not unique. A few years ago, another Massachusetts man with no record of violence was prosecuted because, while returning his children from a visit, he stepped out of the car to pet the family dogs.

Are these horror stories blown out of proportion by angry divorced men? No. Even many attorneys, men and women, agree that a serious problem exists. In a 1993 article in the Massachusetts Bar Association Newsletter, Elaine Epstein, then president of the Massachusetts Bar Association, warned that the ''frenzy surrounding domestic violence'' was leading to disturbing excesses: ''Restraining orders ... are granted to virtually all who apply... In many [divorce] cases, allegations of abuse are now used for tactical advantage.'' Under the Abuse Prevention Act of 1978, a temporary restraining order can be issued ex parte, without the defendant being notified - much less informed of the specific charges. In theory, he can present his side at a later hearing to determine if the order should be made permanent.

At these hearings, however, the defendant has none of the safeguards of a criminal trial. Cross-examination of witnesses may be severely limited, and many attorneys say that exculpatory evidence is unlikely to be given serious weight.

A 1995 study by the Massachusetts courts found that of the nearly 60,000 orders issued annually, fewer than half involve even an allegation of physical violence. Epstein says that she has seen ''affidavits which just said someone was in fear, or there had been an argument or yelling.'' In 1990, the Supreme Judicial Court ruled that a claim of ''fear'' was not enough to support a restraining order: there had to be ''reasonable'' fear of ''imminent serious physical harm.'' But often, judges who worry about being perceived as insensitive to women are satisfied with an affirmative reply to ''Are you afraid of bodily harm by the defendant?'' Indeed, former state Representative Barbara Gray, a sponsor of the Abuse Prevention Act, told me three years ago that ''judges grant the restraining orders without asking too many questions'' - though she saw nothing wrong with that.

With the order in effect, any contact becomes punishable by up to two and half years of imprisonment. Legally, it doesn't matter if the contact is accidental, or if it happened with the purported victim's consent or at her initiative. Fathers hit with restraining orders based on trivial or uncorroborated allegations have been jailed for sending their kids a Christmas card, asking a telephone operator to convey the message that a gravely ill grandmother would like to see her grandchildren, or returning a child's phone call.

Critics of the law claim that a majority of restraining orders are obtained under false pretenses; defenders say that it's no more than 5 percent. But even the low estimate adds up to about 2,000 a year - hardly a trifle when individuals lose their homes, their children, and sometimes their freedom.

To many feminists, talk of vindictive, manipulative ex-wives smacks of misogyny. But to recognize that women may sometimes abuse the power they have is simply to recognize that women are human. And men, too, have misused restraining orders. In 1995, Stephen Gruning stormed into the home of ex-girlfriend Rhonda Stuart, shot and wounded her and killed her brother and her new boyfriend. He had earlier been granted two temporary restraining orders against Stuart. On that occasion, women's advocates were quick to point out that a restraining order was very easy to get and could be used as a ''coercive tool, regardless of the facts.''

When I spoke to Gray, she conceded that the use of restraining orders as weapons in divorce cases was ''always a possibility,'' but insisted that there was no way to curb such abuses without endangering women who need protection. This typical attitude bodes ill for civil rights - and it may not do victims much good. Several studies suggest that restraining orders have little, if any, protective effect. Indeed, a system bogged down in trivial pursuit may fail to single out cases of real danger.

Change in the current law is badly needed. Yet, as Senate minority leader Brian P. Lees (R-Hampden) noted, women's groups have opposed any proposal to protect the rights of defendants under restraining orders.

Charges of domestic violence, by women or men, must be taken seriously. But in the American system of justice, sensitivity to victims should never turn into a presumption of guilt.

Cathy Young is vice-president of the Women's Freedom Network. She is the author of Ceasefire: Why Women and Men Must Join Forces to Achieve True Equality. She can be reached at [email protected].

This column first appeared on page A19 of the Boston Globe on 08/30/99.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Letter to the Editor
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 05:48 am
@BillRM,
Bill, all the safety rules in the world are useless unless they are followed rigorously. Even you acknowledge that they are not...even you acknowledge there are people who are not following those rules. We all know that...because so many people will be killed or severely wounded each year "accidentally"--and you assert that none of that would be happening if the safety protocols were being followed.

And some people kill other people with the guns they own or are able easily to obtain from careless gun owners.

Almost every one of those people who kill with their guns, up until the moment they start their killing, are people you would identify as decent, law-abiding Americans. None of the people who committed mass shootings during the last ten years were criminals prior to their shooting sprees.

So obviously much, much better screening has to be done...and follow up screenings have to be done to lessen the "accidents" and killings.

What do you think about a tax system on guns that include an initial tax high enough to cover the cost of a rigorous screening--including psychological testing and gun safety instruction and testing--and for periodic (perhaps every three years) re-screening on those items with the cost of the re-screening being borne by the individual gun owners?
BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 05:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Bill, all the safety rules in the world are useless unless they are followed rigorously. Even you acknowledge that they are not...even you acknowledge there are people who are not following those rules. We all know that...because so many people will be killed or severely wounded each year "accidentally"--and you assert that none of that would be happening if the safety protocols were being followed.


Lot of things in homes that can kill if someone is careless so would you be for removing all the many other items that can cause deaths if someone is careless in handling them as well as guns from homes?

Given that there are 300 millions firearms in half the homes in the US the numbers of accidents seems smaller then for many others things that people have in their homes.

Let see how about forbidding cigarettes in homes as every year families are burn to death due to someone falling asleep with a burning cigarette?

Space heaters had been known to cause deaths every year due to misused.

I am sure the list could go on and on.




BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What do you think about a tax system on guns that include an initial tax high enough to cover the cost of a rigorous screening--including psychological testing and gun safety instruction and testing--and for periodic (perhaps every three years) re-screening on those items with the cost of the re-screening being borne by the individual gun owners?


I love the idea of rigorous screening including psychological testing of a 100 millions guns owners.

We could end the unemployment problem by training all the unemployed to do this screening.

It would give jobs to millions.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:10 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5228032)
Quote:
Bill, all the safety rules in the world are useless unless they are followed rigorously. Even you acknowledge that they are not...even you acknowledge there are people who are not following those rules. We all know that...because so many people will be killed or severely wounded each year "accidentally"--and you assert that none of that would be happening if the safety protocols were being followed.


Lot of things in homes that can kill if someone is careless so would you be for removing all the many other items that can cause deaths if someone is careless in handling them as well as guns from homes?

Given that there are 300 millions firearms in half the homes in the US the numbers of accidents seems smaller then for many others things that people have in their homes.

Let see how about forbidding cigarettes in homes as every year families are burn to death due to someone falling asleep with a burning cigarette?

Space heaters had been known to cause deaths every year due to misused.

I am sure the list could go on and on.


If you want to have a discussion about how to make can openers safer, I guess we can have it at some point. But right now there is a national discussion (and one in this thread) about the problems our country is having with gun safety...and mass shootings.

Any chance you will ever actually respond to a question presented to you?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:12 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5228032)
Quote:
What do you think about a tax system on guns that include an initial tax high enough to cover the cost of a rigorous screening--including psychological testing and gun safety instruction and testing--and for periodic (perhaps every three years) re-screening on those items with the cost of the re-screening being borne by the individual gun owners?


I love the idea of rigorous screening including psychological testing of a 100 millions guns owners.

We could end the unemployment problem by training all the unemployed to do this screening.

It would give jobs to millions.


That's more like it.

So now...is your answer "Yes, that would be a good idea I could live with"...or "No, it is an idea I do not like?"
BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
So now...is your answer "Yes, that would be a good idea I could live with"...or "No, it is an idea I do not like?"


It is a stupid idea due to the fact that it can not be done in the real world for the reason already given and as it can not be done there is no reason to give an opinion if it would be useful or not.

BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you want to have a discussion about how to make can openers safer, I guess we can have it at some point. But right now there is a national discussion (and one in this thread) about the problems our country is having with gun safety


Just cheerfully pointing out the weakness of the logic and usefulness of selecting out one object that is in half the nation homes for special treatment that off hand seems no more dangerous then many other objects found in homes.
BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:41 am
@firefly,
Quote:
What about people who have an Order of Protection lodged against them?

Should they be allowed to purchase a gun?


Oh you do know that a fairly large percents of police officers somewhere around 10 percent if memory serve me correctly can not have a gun off duty due to some record of domestic violence in their past?

The ATF bended over backward to find a way not to loss tens of thousands of police officers nationwide after congress passed a law that if anyone had done a plead deal over a misdemeanor violence charge or been found guilt for that matter even decades in the past can no longer own a firearm.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:53 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5228058)
Quote:
So now...is your answer "Yes, that would be a good idea I could live with"...or "No, it is an idea I do not like?"


It is a stupid idea due to the fact that it can not be done in the real world for the reason already given and as it can not be done there is no reason to give an opinion if it would be useful or not.


Well, as I am sure you expected, I disagree that it is a stupid idea--but it certainly is an idea that might be difficult to implement. Not sure why you think it cannot be done in "the real world"...it most assuredly could be done.

Driving a car requires a driver's license...driver's licenses require testing...older drivers often are required to be re-tested to maintain a license.

So, gun owners could be required to be tested (including psychological suitability and safety technique aptitude)...and be re-tested periodically. And there is absolutely no reason why they should not be required to bear the burden for the costs.

But it appears actual suggestions for what can be done in place of banning guns is nothing something you gun owners are comfortable with. You really do seem to think that the "right" to own guns should not be restricted in any way.

Interesting! Incredibly sad, but interesting.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 06:57 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5228057)
Quote:
If you want to have a discussion about how to make can openers safer, I guess we can have it at some point. But right now there is a national discussion (and one in this thread) about the problems our country is having with gun safety


Just cheerfully pointing out the weakness of the logic and usefulness of selecting out one object that is in half the nation homes for special treatment that off hand seems no more dangerous then many other objects found in homes.


I guess if you consider a gun to be no more dangerous than other objects found in the home...none of this national turmoil makes any sense. Of course, it is not beyond reason to say that anyone who considers a gun to be no more dangerous than other objects found in the home...probably should not be allowed to own a gun. They just are not mature enough for such ownership.

I wonder why they don't send soldiers into war carrying sophisticated can openers or dish drainers?
parados
 
  4  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 07:07 am
@BillRM,
Bill,

You keep bringing up things that kill far fewer people than guns and are far more regulated.

Guns kill more than 10 times the people that die from fires.
CDC Faststats -
2010 deaths from smoke, fire, flames - 2,782
deaths from guns - over 30,000
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2013 07:07 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Serious or Irrational?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Why would a civilian need a military style killing machine?


Exactly what machine are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
 

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