64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sun 13 Jan, 2013 10:47 pm
@MontereyJack,
your argument assumes agreement that suicide is bad and that the state should remove from the citizens the right to check out. We are not together on this anymore. Using government force against the citizens is even more problematic when the removal of Constitutional guaranties are contemplated.
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Sun 13 Jan, 2013 10:54 pm
Man this is like a dog chasing his tail... going in circles all day long may be fun but it's just a waste of time. I'm waiting for Biden's gun control`"recommendations" on tuesday.
Ol Joe, one thing I have learned about Ol Joe, no matter what he recommends, he will not understand what it is because he was told by someone else what to say.
That's Joe for you.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Sun 13 Jan, 2013 11:22 pm
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
I'm waiting for Biden's gun control`"recommendations" on tuesday.

why bother? We know what the obama plan will be given all of the planted leaks.

1) assault weapons ban stronger than the last one

2) ban on clips bigger than 10 rounds

3) a largely unfunded assault weapon buy back program

4) a largely unfunded school security program

5) background check everyone

6) upgrade bureaucracy that handles the checks

7) make it harder to lie on the paperwork

8) make it a crime to not take due diligence to secure your guns, and to allow someone without a permit to use your gun.

9) instruct the justice department to work on making the laws clear that potential evildoers are to be reported, and instruct judges to be proactive in protecting the rights of the citizens to be free of gun violence.

more government, more government, more government...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sun 13 Jan, 2013 11:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
Brookings Institute

Quote:
The President has put the Vice President in a nearly impossible position: to change policy in an area rife with emotions and interest group opposition. Failure on Mr. Biden’s part may be inevitable, yet any chance he has to craft a successful gun control policy response to the Newtown tragedy requires measured reform and balanced strategy.

Mr. Biden is a master of the legislative process. He knows he cannot fix the whole problem nor can he achieve everything the president wants. Instead, he must recommend smaller-scale, straightforward gun reforms that the public can easily comprehend. “Assault weapons ban” is a vague and unclear term that most struggle to understand fully. It is also not passable. “Universal background checks” are something most Americans can comprehend and is harder for interest groups and activists to oppose. Biden knows any chance at success absolutely requires broad public support and minimal interest group (read: NRA) opposition. Smaller, piecemeal reforms can foster both.

In addition to the measured reform, Biden needs to insist on a balanced strategy. In some negotiations, it is critical to start big and negotiate down to compromise. For gun control, that approach would be an abject failure. If the Obama Administration begins with their ideal offer, they will ultimately get nothing. The “sensible gun reform” narrative will immediately be replaced with “Obama is coming for our guns.” Instead, if the White House thinks it can get 20% of what it wants, it must ask for 20%—nothing more, nothing less. Supporters on the left may criticize this approach, but they will be even angrier if the Vice President fails to deliver.

Reports also indicate that the Obama Administration may use executive power to enact some reforms. This approach may be a viable, effective, and necessary strategy, but not right now. If President Obama uses the powers of his office in advance of legislative efforts, he will ruin any momentum he has in Congress. Premature executive action will ensure legislative failure. If the White House proposals fail—or even if they succeed—the president can rely on executive power later.

The politics surrounding this issue make policy change profoundly difficult. Sensitivity toward the political needs and forces in Congress, in the public, and among interest groups is crucial. For a president who often struggles to deal with the politics of the legislative process, he must consider not only the strength of his office, but also the proper timing of his powers.

On Tuesday, the Biden Task Force will make public its recommendations. If the proposals are measured, they have a chance of enactment. If they are too broad and lack strategic vision they will certainly fail. In the end, Mr. Biden may be the only person in the White House with the capacity to succeed on this issue. Yet, his success depends on his approach and that of his boss.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/01/11-gun-control-task-force-hudak

i expect that Obama is itching for a fight, that he would rather have the fight than get anything done, so he will go big here.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 12:15 am
@hawkeye10,
An not one bit of it is going to do anything to reduce guns use in crimes or murders mass or otherwise.

What annoy me most is this is not being done in good faith as somehow I do give our leaders and their advisors credit for knowing the same facts as anyone else that had ever handle a gun does concerning so call assault rifles lethality compare to all other semi-auto rifles and so on.

The magazine size limit might have some tiny tiny benefits however given that a magazine can be change out in two seconds or so it is not going to be must of a benefits.

As far as background checks if you can not pass such a check you buy the damn gun in a private sale.

Once more there are 300 millions or so firearms out there in the US and 5 to 10 millions of them are so call assault rifles.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 12:40 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
As far as background checks if you can not pass such a check you buy the damn gun in a private sale

i have not heard anything, but I expect that this plan would make it a crime to sell an assault weapon to anyone not approved by the government. then if the weapon is sold without the proper permits the old owner will be liable for all harm done, they would be ruined in civil court.
hingehead
 
  2  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 05:12 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
your argument assumes agreement that suicide is bad and that the state should remove from the citizens the right to check out.


An interesting point that should probably discussed on a separate thread. I'm pro-euthanasia with a lot of checks/controls, but suicide, particularly by gun is all to often triggered by depression and guns in particular make spur of the moment '**** it I'll end it' decisions all too simple to act on when the slightest intervention of a friend or love one could prevent the motivation, or it least introduce doubt - depression is a treatable illness.
parados
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:03 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

Yes, I guess I did. My comment "usually pretty fatal" had a bit different flavor than the "usually fatal" that you rendered it as, so your quote didn't really sound like what I was saying.

Is "pretty fatal" like a little pregnant? I guess a little pregnant might not sound like pregnant if you are only counting syllables.

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:04 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:



Anyone who has any question about gun registration only needs to look at this case here to see why it should never be complied with.

So you are all for making sure that gun owners are criminals. Good for you.

Now tell us how you are all for enforcing the gun laws we have just to show us how you have no common sense at all.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:08 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
i have not heard anything, but I expect that this plan would make it a crime to sell an assault weapon to anyone not approved by the government. then if the weapon is sold without the proper permits the old owner will be liable for all harm done, they would be ruined in civil court.


Kind of like it is illegal to sell drugs on the street corner and off hand I would bet large sums that most gun serial numbers can not be trace to the current owners now.

Oh any hardware store will sell you a file also.

Footnote two of my working firearms have no serial numbers on them as they predate that requirement in fact they are not even legally consider firearms even those they can surely kill as well as any modern firearm.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  5  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:14 am
@oralloy,
Quote:


No. The fact that gun availability has very little impact on homicide rates is highly significant. It is anything but a red herring.

But in the US there is a rather large correlation between suicides and gun ownership when you compare the states.

Largest suicide rate - Alaska
most suicides committed with guns - Alaska
2nd and 3rd states with they highest gun suicides Wyoming and Montana
2nd and 3rd states with highest suicide rates? Wyoming and Montana

Lowest suicide rate?
New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts
Lowest gun suicide rates?
New Jersey, Massachusetts, Hawaii.
New York is fifth lowest.

Why do states with the lowest suicide rates have more restrictions on gun access?

California - which has some rather high bridges - 6th lowest suicide rate
10th lowest gun suicide rate.

The only way you can support your claim is to bring up different cultures that view suicide differently. Japan and North Korea see it as an honorable way out while in the US it is viewed as mentally ill.
parados
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:15 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Comparisons between nations shows quite clearly that gun availability does not correlate to suicide rates.

Your comparison fails to adjust for cultural factors.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:30 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
As far as background checks if you can not pass such a check you buy the damn gun in a private sale

i have not heard anything, but I expect that this plan would make it a crime to sell an assault weapon to anyone not approved by the government. then if the weapon is sold without the proper permits the old owner will be liable for all harm done, they would be ruined in civil court.


I don't know of anyone selling assault weapons to anyone as you
have described. Do you have any idea what an assault weapon is?

As for selling firearms in a private sale, it's a great way to save money, but
you had better be able to pass a background check... I have copies of the
buyers DLs for every firearm that I've sold locally in cash, face to face deals.
I do this to cover my ass and because it's the right thing to do.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:49 am
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
As for selling firearms in a private sale, it's a great way to save money, but
you had better be able to pass a background check... I have copies of the
buyers DLs for every firearm that I've sold locally in cash, face to face deals.
I do this to cover my ass and because it's the right thing to do.


Let see my most love handgun was purchased decades ago in a private sale and the seller is long death, as I said before two of my guns are working firearms that predate the serial numbers requirement for firearms and one firearm came down to me very informally due to a death in the family also decades ago, another one was a private sale also decades ago and I am not sure if that seller in alive or not at this point.

I can think of only two guns that could be likely traced to me as a matter of fact and I am sure I am not alone in having such a weapon mixed.

Guns last longer then most people if taken care of and are pass from one person to another in the normal course of life.
parados
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:50 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:



I don't know of anyone selling assault weapons to anyone as you
have described. Do you have any idea what an assault weapon is?

As for selling firearms in a private sale, it's a great way to save money, but
you had better be able to pass a background check... I have copies of the
buyers DLs for every firearm that I've sold locally in cash, face to face deals.
I do this to cover my ass and because it's the right thing to do.

Spurt's version of a background check....
If you can drive, you can buy a gun.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:55 am


Parasite and his/her liberal democrats ilk hate individualism, they like their humans divided into groups.

The one group liberal democrats hate and fear the most is the black American individual that legally possesses firearms.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:57 am
@BillRM,


I stimulated my local economy every time I purchased a firearm from a local private seller.
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 07:59 am
@H2O MAN,
http://imageshack.us/a/img706/6780/gunslu.jpg
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 08:13 am
@jcboy,

Breaking news!

It's 2013, there's a quasi black American in the White House and liberal democrats
are still scared to death of black American individuals that legally posses firearms.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jan, 2013 08:21 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
...suicide, particularly by gun is all to often triggered by depression and guns in particular make spur of the moment '**** it I'll end it' decisions all too simple to act on when the slightest intervention of a friend or love one could prevent the motivation, or it least introduce doubt - depression is a treatable illness.

That's why addressing mental health services should be one aspect of dealing with our country's problem with gun violence--it will benefit the treatment of depression that leads to suicides by gun. Those suicides make a substantial contribution to our current gun death statistics, and depression is a treatable illness.

All too often, depression is now treated by family doctors who give a patient a prescription for an anti-depressant and don't do much more beyond that. But research clearly indicates that is not the most effective treatment, although for insurers it may be the most cost-effective. The most effective treatment is a combination of therapy and medication, something that requires a referral to a mental health professional, and our health care policies have to make sure that such therapeutic treatment for depression is available to all who need it and that referrals to specialists become the norm. Because that would also be the best suicide prevention measure, that is what we should demand that insurers provide.

I don't think enhanced mental health services would do much at all in terms of trying to prevent mass shootings. The notion that these people can be identified in advance, and civilly locked up in psychiatric facilities to prevent them from going on rampages, is largely an illusion. The ability of even experienced mental health professionals to predict "dangerousness" of that sort is poor. And several of the mass shooters were either in psychiatric treatment, or had had prior contacts with mental health professionals, and there is no indication that any of them lacked access to mental health treatment or lacked the means to pay for it, had they sought it out. The Fort Hood shooter was himself a psychiatrist. And because these people were all "law-abiding" citizens prior to their massacres, and were not acting in a clearly dangerous way prior to those massacres, or voicing specific threats of violence prior to their massacres, the justification for locking any of them up in a mental hospital would have been almost nil.

The one clear sign that would have been the biggest red flag for all of the mass shooters would have been their easy access to the firearms and ammunition they used, and, for most of them, their attempts to obtain even more firearms, or more ammunition, prior to carrying out their rampages. Perhaps we need to limit the quantities of ammunition, or weapons, that can be purchased within a certain period of time, or perhaps we need to better scrutinize or track the buyers, by having a data base that tracks large ammunition purchases, or tracks multiple weapons acquisition. James Holmes, the Aurora theater shooter, purchased almost 7000 rounds of ammunition in a two-month period--along with all of his weapons during the same period--and that sort of buying pattern should not go unnoticed, it should raise an alert.

So, while the calls for better mental health services are coming in the wake of mass shootings, and are prompted by indications that many of the shooters had some serious mental health problems, enhancing these services will likely not be very effective, at all, in preventing future mass shootings. Enhanced gun controls and regulations might do a lot more to help prevent mass shootings.







 

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