64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
neko nomad
 
  3  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:46 pm
The home protected with a gun
isn't necessarily a safe place for the kids.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:51 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Quote:
How many black American males have been murdered since the Newtown shooting?


695 up til todayl


Really?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:52 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate



Hofstadter, 1970 on the American Gun Culture

http://www.americanheritage.com/content/america-gun-culture
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:52 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
They don't have to cross the Mexican border to get guns to bring into Chicago. They don't even have to leave Cook County to get the guns.


So? .......Who care where the guns will come from as they will come any distance they need to come from and as they come they will be pouring billions into groups that are harmful to the societies they happen to exist in such as the Mexico drug gangs are doing now.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:54 pm
@neko nomad,


Parent of the year!

Georgia mother hides children, shoots intruder 5 times during home invasion, police say
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:54 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:
why am I a tool?


sorry, can't answer that for you
firefly
 
  3  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:56 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
In Newtown’s shadow, Chicago’s bleak gun toll goes on
Trymaine Lee, @trymainelee
12/20/2012

Her name never made national news. There were no headlines screaming for gun control. There were no teary eyes in the White House. And no one dared utter the obligatory, ‘it’s not supposed to happen here,’ as they so often do when the young and innocent are so tragically taken.

Heaven Sutton was seven years old when she was killed last summer, struck by a stray bullet as she sold candy and snow cones in her front yard on the eve of Chicago’s hottest day of the year.

Her grief stricken mother pleaded for peace. The mayor expressed his outrage. And Chicago—where gun violence is as routine as the L train into the South Side—buried yet another of its young. Heaven joined the more than 270 school aged children to be killed in Chicago in just three years.

Few outsiders will know the names on that list.

But last Friday, on the heels of the horrific killing of 27 people in Newtown, Conn., including 20 first graders, a renewed national debate over America’s access to guns has been sparked. With it a closer look at gun control and gun violence in cities like Chicago, where young people—some of them as young as those killed at Sandy Hook Elementary—have been dying for years in steady, violent trickles with little more than local notice.

Some have died over turf. Some over the spoils of the city’s lucrative drug trade. Still others, particularly the youngest among them, are far too frequently caught in the abyss between a bullet and the lack of effective gun legislation to keep illegal weapons off the streets.

“These mass shootings get the news but they are just the tip of the iceberg, a tiny percent of the gun violence we see in America,” said David Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health. “The big issue is always guns. And if we can figure out a way to make it more difficult for inner city gangs to have very easy access to guns, we’ll be making a tremendous difference.”

The pipeline of weapons into inner cities is laced with cash and bad intentions, Hemenway said. From states with lax gun laws to the organizations that spend millions supporting pro-gun legislation, to gun shops that allow traffickers and straw purchasers to stockpile weapons and flip them for easy cash.

“How do the inner city kids get their guns? They get them from somebody trafficking guns in, adults making money trafficking the guns into these communities,” Hemenway said. “It’s about money. And I think this is about a small group of very vocal, animated people…our strange political system where we’ve given huge amounts of power to single-issue lobbies.”

Others blame a criminal justice system that fails to prosecute people caught with illegal weapons to the fullest extent of the law. Still others on police cutbacks.

Regardless of the roots, the cost of gun violence is astonishingly high in Chicago, calculated in both deaths and bullet- battered communities, but also dollars.

Roseanna Ander, executive director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab, said the resulting hospital stays, court cases and law enforcement costs related to gun violence, as well as indirect costs associated with residents and businesses leaving the city because of fear of crime and violence are extraordinary.

Anders estimates the cost to be about $2.5 billion annually, or $2,500 per household.

“If you removed the homicides that involve guns, the homicide rates would look like the U.K., London, and Western Europe,” Anders said. “It’s the guns that drive the homicide problems in Chicago.”

The shootings and killings seem to pile highest during the long, hot summers there, particularly in neighborhoods where many lack air-conditioned apartments or live in otherwise inhospitable dwellings. So the sidewalks and corners, front stoops and parks become a draw for folks on the hottest of days. Law enforcement sources say about 80% of homicides involving a gun take place outdoors, the majority of them before the bone-chilling Chicago winters set in.

This past summer, the city experienced a more than 30% spike in homicides while other crimes, including rape and battery have gone down. Twice this year the city bested its record for the most killings in a single day—six—once in February, and once in August. Over the course of another weekend in August, nine people were killed and 37 wounded in shootings. There were no less than 38 killings in August alone.

The city’s summer death toll even drew comparisons to war zones: 144 American soldiers had been killed in Afghanistan by June of this year; 228 Chicagoans had been killed during that same time period. Many of the dead were school age or teenagers.

The morning after Friday’s killings in Newtown, a headline in the Chicago Tribune read, “10 shot, including 4 teens, Friday afternoon and night.”

The sweeping tallies of violence have become a staple in local newspapers. The names of the victims have become almost secondary to the sheer volume of the violent episodes engulfing them.

“I think a lot of times in communities where this kind of violence takes place often, a lot of us become desensitized. But I think what this incident at Sandy Hook did is show that it can happen in places that you don’t expect,” said Norman Kerr, a youth advocate and outreach director for UCAN in Chicago. “And I think that’s the way we should look at these things when they happen in Newtown or any other city. These things should always happen where you don’t expect it.”

‘I Turned 12, My Dreams Just Went Out The Door’

Cordell Smith was about nine years old when he witnessed his first murder. A man came barreling from between two homes with a gun in his hand, squeezing off shot after shot into the park across the street. Another man tumbled to the ground, lifeless.

By 12 Smith was an honor roll student with one foot in the classroom and another in gangland, a young member of Chicago’s mighty P. Stone Nation. As he grew older, more impulsive and angry, he said he became adept at handling his fists and a pistol.

“When I turned 12 my dreams just went out the door,” Smith said. “I was loyal to friends. That’s where the fighting came in. I started telling people this is our clique, they mess with you they have to mess with all of us.”

His reputation began to spread. By 15 and 16 he’d be arrested several times for fighting, with school security guards, teachers, cops, rivals. He’d been shuffled from jail to group homes and youth facilities.

Five of his close friends were killed around the same time. Among them 15-year-old Jasmine who was robbed at her home, shot and wrapped in a plastic bag by a guy they’d all gone to school with. Her killer left her in her family’s basement for her parents to discover days later upon their return from vacation.

There was Brian, whom Smith described as someone he’d looked up to,“the one in a million that was actually doing something with his life.” He was about 21, and was shot to death around Thanksgiving by his little sister’s vengeful boyfriend who he’d scuffled with just days earlier. Another was killed for crossing into the wrong gang’s territory, “across the tracks,” shot up as he pulled out of a local car wash.

“I’ve seen people actually shoot people right in front of me,” Smith, now 25, and a college student said. “I’ve held a gun in my hand and shot it. Violence to me was like drinking water, something I’ve experienced and seen, not every day but the majority of the days of my youth.”

Smith said the draw of violence is strong for youth in Chicago who grow up in poverty and penned in on all sides by gang borders.

“It was normal. It was everyday life. I used to be an honor roll student, then I ventured into violence,” Smith said. “I didn’t have anyone keeping me on the direct path.”

Academics and activists say young people who witness or experience violence essentially grow up in a constant state of trauma to one degree or another. And often that trauma begets emotional paralysis or more violence.

“A lot of young people who are hanging out have been affected by violent incidents that have caused trauma,” said Kerr, who leads UCAN’s Chicagoland Institute for Transforming Youth project (CITY). “Some have been shot, some have witnessed domestic violence or shootings. Go into a classroom and ask how many have been shot, or know someone who has been shot or killed. Almost all of them will raise their hand.”

“We go under the assumption that most kids in these communities have been exposed to violence, have witnessed it to a certain level or have experienced it at certain levels,” he added.

Given the wide exposure to violence, Kerr says it’s no wonder why so many turn to guns and gangs.

“In a context of a lot of urban communities where this stuff is going on, we still expect them to be able to move on because it is so regular. People say, so what you saw someone get shot, you’ve still got to be able to go to school and function properly in society and that’s the expectation which is somewhat unrealistic.

“Nobody is talking about the trauma piece of it,” he said. “We have 15-year-old guys gang banging. Why are we surprised? There’s so much that they don’t get if you compare them to people who live in safer communities that have a lot of protective factors. They have enormous support, they have more people saying you can do this, that have higher expectations.”

Gary Slutkin, founder of Cure Violence and a professor of Epidemiology and International Health at the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health, likened the trauma of gun violence to an infectious disease.

“We have to stop thinking about this entirely as a moral issue of good and bad, and more as a contagious process that requires an approach the same as we look at other infectious illnesses,” Slutkin said. “That means we have to look at who has been exposed, who is likely to do events, and offer them something that changes their thinking and the norms about violence.”

If violence was a sickness, Cordell Smith says he had a full blown case.

“I just didn’t care,” he said. “My thinking was,you ain’t doing nothing to stop what’s going on out here, so, I didn’t think for a second to pop you in the mouth.”

‘Vultures Hungry to Devour the 2nd Amendment’

In Illinois, the debate over guns and gun laws have been simmering for decades, when in the early 1980s the city essentially banned handguns within the city limits. The move pitted city politicians, community activists, and anti-gun groups—all of whom had grown weary of city violence—against downstate hunters, Second-amendment ideologues and pro-gun groups.

Chicago continued to take a national lead in enacting some of the strictest gun laws in the country. In 1981, Morton Grove, a Chicago suburb, became the first municipality in the country to pass an outright ban on the possession, sale or transport of handguns. The National Rifle Association then went on a preemptive campaign across the country to push legislation that would stymie similar laws in other states.

In 1982, in the wake of assassination attempts on President Reagan and Pope John Paull II, Chicago introduced and passed an ordinance freezing handgun sales. The ban did little to slow gun violence in Chicago, as the crack-era of the mid-1980s fueled never-seen-before violence across the nation.

In the years to come there would be challenges to the city’s gun ban. And in 2008 the Supreme Court struck down a handgun ban in Washington, D.C., saying it violated residents’ Second Amendment rights. The ruling opened the door for a challenge in Chicago, and Otis McDonald, then a 74-year-old black man who’d grown tired of the “gangbangers and drug dealers” in his South Side neighborhood, became one of the lead plaintiffs in a case challenging the decades-old laws. In 2010, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the city’s handgun ban was unconstitutional. New, extremely restrictive laws were crafted to allow residents to legally own handguns.

And, just last week, a federal appeals court tossed the state’s ban on carrying concealed weapons. The state had been the only one in the nation with a concealed carry ban. It now has 180 days to craft concealed carry legislation.

“I have fought this industry time and again,” Mayor Rahm Emanuel told reporters recently. The city has vowed to keep fighting.

“This ruling came out approximately a week before this incident, this unfortunate incident,” said Tom VandenBerk, CEO of UCAN, the Chicago youth advocacy organization, of the recent concealed carry ruling and the Newtown massacre. The ruling is a setback to anti-gun groups and a victory for the gun industry and groups like the NRA, who VandenBerk says has pushed their pro-gun agenda in cities already reeling from gun violence.

“Our rights, our freedom, our rights and our freedom, that’s always the reaction you get from them,” he said of the pro-gun lobby. “There’s almost never any sympathy or understanding, and I think there’s a bit of a racist thing happening. They say, those kids in Chicago are just killing each other, they’re just gang bangers.”


But the mostly black and Latino youth dying by the gun aren’t the only ones being impacted, Vandenberk said. He said that in rural downstate Illinois there’s a real epidemic among “white kids committing suicide” because of the availability of guns.
http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/20/in-newtowns-shadow-chicagos-bleak-gun-toll-goes-on/

H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:56 pm
@ehBeth,


eh, you're just another poster child for Liberal Idiocracy
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:57 pm
@Val Killmore,
Sorry again.

I've read about these data - they were published just recently by eurostat.

One problem seems to be the different definition of e.g. "violent crime": in England and Wales, for instance common assault (=simple assault, no injuries, the lowest level of assault) is a "violent crime". Any kind of "sexual offence" is included in their data as well as "harassment", "snatch theft", "other violence". I suppose, these data are included in those for Scotland and Northern Ireland as well. I don't know, if other countries use the same definition.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:06 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
Twitter can be so nasty in so few characters

Quote:
StillJohnCA Think Gooder(retweeted by StuDiligence)
NEWSFLASH: My friend said he joined a support group for paranoid white boys with small penises. He even showed me his #NRA membership card.
3 hours ago13


Freedom haters get so childish when they are prevented from violating people's civil rights.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:07 pm
@33export,
33export wrote:
It's just a matter of time - the daily body count goes on in the meantime.. For now, let's
wait to see how this issue plays in Peoria.


The Supreme Court will strike it down.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:10 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The pipeline of weapons into inner cities is laced with cash and bad intentions, Hemenway said. From states with lax gun laws to the organizations that spend millions supporting pro-gun legislation, to gun shops that allow traffickers and straw purchasers to stockpile weapons and flip them for easy cash.

“How do the inner city kids get their guns? They get them from somebody trafficking guns in, adults making money trafficking the guns into these communities,” Hemenway said. “It’s about money. And I think this is about a small group of very vocal, animated people…our strange political system where we’ve given huge amounts of power to single-issue lobbies.”


So there will be some benefits to greatly and I mean greatly increasing the now existing pipelines from one state to another to international pipelines more then likely involving the same groups that bring the meg thousands of tons of drugs into the country now and leaving bodies all over the world as a result?

The street gangs now and the gun violence they bring are being fuel now by the untold billions of illegal sale of drugs and now you and people like you Firefly wish to pour more billions into those very people pockets by adding guns nationwide to the drug trade.

If you would care to greatly reduce street violence tomorrow all you would need to do is to end the so call war on drug that are fueling that violence.

Laws that ban objects that there is a market for is the problem and you do not end the problem one ban had brought to us by adding another ban object.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:41 pm
@revelette,


The most important thing it can teach Obama is that if he goes around trying to violate America's civil rights, America will vote the Democrats out of office.

Obama seems a bit slow on the uptake there, but his fellow Democrats have gotten the message.



Quote:
But he had racked up, at best, only a partial policy victory, for the ban was riddled with loopholes and did little to curtail the availability of semiautomatic weapons.


Hardly loopholes. When you pass an unconstitutional ban on harmless cosmetic features, it is just a given that people will comply by creating different cosmetic features.



Quote:
In the ensuing war with the NRA, which was adamantly opposed to the assault weapons ban (even a ban severely weakened through legislative compromise), Clinton used police officers, who argued they were being outgunned by criminals and mad men, as his backup. The fight, as Clinton orchestrated it, was not a soft-on-crime Democratic politician versus the all-American NRA; it was cops versus the extremists of the gun lobby. As the political pros of today might say, Clinton flipped the optics.


That didn't prevent the NRA from annihilating the Democrats in the 1994 election, did it?



Quote:
But to what end? The assault weapons ban proved of little value where it counted most: on the street. The legislation prohibited the manufacture, possession, transfer, and sale of assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition clips, yet it defined assault weapons in a manner that would allow gun manufacturers to skirt the ban without much trouble.


Again, when the entire point of the law is an unconstitutional ban on harmless cosmetic features, simply choosing different harmless cosmetic features will comply with the law.



Quote:
During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama called for reviving the assault weapons ban. But after he became president, his administration took no steps to do so. Guns were too hot (politically) to touch.


Nancy Pelosi practically kneed him in the balls when he started babbling about another unconstitutional ban on assault weapons.



Quote:
The .223 caliber Bushmaster AR-15 semiautomatic rifle reportedly used by Adam Lanza in the Newtown shootings was the sort of weapon gun control advocates had hoped to prohibit with the 1994 ban. Yet even though the state of Connecticut passed its own assault weapons ban, modeled on the 1994 federal law but with no sunset clause, this particular gun was legal in the state because Bushmaster had made a slight and insignificant change in its design to evade restrictions.


Nonsense. Complying with the law is not evading the law.

The law banned certain harmless cosmetic features, and Bushmaster simply chose other harmless cosmetic features.



Quote:
Now Obama has committed to a robust gun control program. At a White House press conference on Wednesday, he announced that he had asked Vice President Joe Biden, who helped draft the 1994 crime bill, to lead an initiative that would propose a variety of gun safety measures by the end of next month. And the president ticked off several proposals that would likely be included in the Biden recommendations, with an assault weapons ban topping the list that also included a ban on the sale of high-capacity ammunition clips and background checks for all gun purchases.


Funny how VP Biden has begun using language that refers only to limiting magazine sizes, with a very conspicuous avoidance of any mention of assault weapons.

I know Obama desperately wants to violate the Constitution. But it looks like he has been forced to accept the reality that the NRA is not going to allow him to do it.



Quote:
As Obama assumes this tough mission, he can look back to the 1994 episode for guidance on how to win the politics and how to avoid screwing up the policy. Clinton savvily enlisted the law enforcement community and made good use of his Cabinet. Obama could emulate both moves. (He has instructed members of his Cabinet to help craft recommendations for Biden's task force.) Yet to make sure his efforts yield real-world results, the president will have to be mindful of policy particulars and not repeat the errors of 1994. "If you're going to be effective, you have to have a broad-based ban on weapons and on ammo," the former Justice Department official says.


A broad-based ban on weapons and ammo? I'm sure Obama wants exactly that.

Too bad (for him) the NRA and the US Supreme Court stand in his way.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:44 pm
@neko nomad,
neko nomad wrote:
The home protected with a gun
isn't necessarily a safe place for the kids.


Gun safety is always a good idea.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:50 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Quote:
With the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence, the families are pushing for a ban on military style assault weapons


They want tougher gun control, H20Man. If you're so concerned about those children, listen to these people.


Those people are calling for to violate people's Constitutional rights, and for no reason other than the fun they get from violating people's rights.

There is no reason to "listen" to such Freedom Haters. They just need to be dragged off to Guantanamo and waterboarded.

And the Supreme Court will have their unconstitutional law struck down soon enough.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 01:58 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
A broad-based ban on weapons and ammo? I'm sure Obama wants exactly that.

Too bad (for him) the NRA and the US Supreme Court stand in his way.


An the hundred millions or so of gun owners both men and women who know firearms enough to understand the nonsense of labeling so call assault weapons as powerful battlefield weapons instead of rifles that exist on the light side of all rifles.
0 Replies
 
33export
 
  1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 02:04 pm
Overheard in a Florida hockshop(click on image):

http://media2.abcactionnews.com//photo/2012/12/18/guns_bought_sold_sign_pawn_shop_20121218013824_320_240.JPG


Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 02:25 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Re: firefly (Post 5224170)
firefly wrote:
Quote:
With the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence, the families are pushing for a ban on military style assault weapons



They want tougher gun control, H20Man. If you're so concerned about those children, listen to these people.



Those people are calling for to violate people's Constitutional rights, and for no reason other than the fun they get from violating people's rights.

There is no reason to "listen" to such Freedom Haters. They just need to be dragged off to Guantanamo and waterboarded.

And the Supreme Court will have their unconstitutional law struck down soon enough.


There are some people, Oralloy, doing nothing more than calling for laws to prevent people showing mental instability from being able to buy or own guns.

I am beginning to understand why you are so adamant in your opposition to even such reasonable laws.
Region Philbis
 
  3  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 02:32 pm
@33export,

(for those who do not wish to click on it...)

Quote:
Gun seller: 'I can't do it anymore'

SEMINOLE, Fla. - As a pawn shop owner, Frank James was always a big believer in gun rights and the
second amendment. After all, it was his bread and butter business.

But after what he saw in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday, he's had a change of heart. "I basically broke
into tears and looked up on the wall, seeing the types of firearms I am selling," James said.

At the Loan Star Pawn store in Seminole, a glass display case that once housed several Bushmaster
AR-15 assault rifles is now empty. The glass counters normally filled with handguns has been completely
cleared.

"I'm not going to be part of it anymore," James said. He has several copies of the exact rifle suspected
in the massacre.

"The model, the brand, everything," he said.

The father of four said he was especially touched knowing that his youngest child, a six-year old daughter,
was the same age as many of those children who were shot to death.


kudos to Mr. James for finally coming to his senses...
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Fri 11 Jan, 2013 02:38 pm



Obama supporter: 'I can't do it anymore!'
0 Replies
 
 

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