64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 01:15 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
And none of that is fact. It's only your projection of what you hope happens. That's not fact, nor is it truth.


No.

That the courts use the standards Strict Scrutiny/Intermediate Scrutiny/Rational Basis Review to apply the Constitution, is both fact and truth.



MontereyJack wrote:
And yes, you are in fact wrong about what the assault weapons ban said.


No I'm not.
0 Replies
 
nothingtodo
 
  0  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 01:22 am
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
"But the thing is if we get rid of all biological adults, a biological adult such as you wouldn't have to worry your pretty little head about any of that. The dead minds no business of the living."


----
Can you elaborate at all on this theory?
Perhaps exactly what prompts it... I am highly curious.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 06:34 am
Look Mom no guns needed now that the ever helpful new media have given the mentally ill the idea of how must fun it is to shove people in front of subway trains.

Next we will have some nut doing that wholesale to a group of young children on a field trip.

Many ways and means of killing people either one at a time or in groups that do not involved firearms.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 08:01 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
I own a Tromix Saiga 12,


I will need to look that shotgun up as it been a few years since I had given my wife a new firearm and as I had said she love shotguns.


Mine is a HK/Benelli M1 Super 90 Combat that I purchased in 1993.
Countless rounds fired... semi-auto... never a malfunction.

http://athenswater.com/images/HKM1S90.JPG
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 08:38 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5208745)
Frank Apisa wrote:
you OFTEN use hyperbole...


Liar.



Frank Apisa wrote:
Yes, when compared with the number of people alive on the planet, you do call relatively few people liars. But compared with the number of people with whom you interact in this forum, you call relatively MANY liars. And it does seem you do call more people liars than anyone else in the forum


Nope. I call few people here liars.

(Most of the people here are far more honest than you are.)



Frank Apisa wrote:
Actually, you have no qualms about calling anyone a liar just because y0u feel like calling them a liar.


You really do not have to keep repeating this nonsense, H2o...by now I am sure YOU accept it as the truth. I doubt many others do.
parados
 
  2  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 08:56 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
It banned combinations of harmless cosmetic features.


So, did it ban pistol grips or not?


Within the context of my previous explanation, yes it did.

So, if pistol grips exist then they don't exist? Your statements have been nonsense. Pistol grips were not banned. Weapons were still made and sold with pistol grip during the time of the ban. That proves your statement was factually inaccurate. I'll leave you to admit it was factually inaccurate or else we can all agree that you were telling a willful lie.

firefly
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 09:20 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Many ways and means of killing people either one at a time or in groups that do not involved firearms.


So?

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't address the gun violence problem in this country that, on a daily basis, leads to the deaths of people by firearms.

That doesn't mean we should not enact much stricter controls and regulations over guns in this country.

Are you also unable to walk and chew gum at the same time?

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/163321_575092375837876_556391310_n.jpg
Joe Nation
 
  4  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 09:22 am
@parados,
@all
Here's your tally, gun nuts:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

Joe(and counting)Nation
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 09:59 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Then when people bring up the only thing that might offer some protection you and others like you are not interested.

Strict gun control and regulation would also offer some protection, but people like you, those with a gun fetish, are not interested.

You even foolishly believe that armed citizens, or even guards, could prevent or stop surprise assaults by gunmen with semi-automatic/assault weapons. Even armed law enforcement officers can't respond fast enough to prevent their own deaths in situations like that.
Quote:
St. John Sheriff: Deputies were ambushed
Aug 19, 2012

The initial shooting happened around 5:30 a.m. at a parking lot off La. Highway 3217, used by contractors working at the nearby Valero St. Charles Refinery.

Sheriff Tregre said a deputy was working a security detail at the lot and was shot and wounded there.

Tregre said someone called deputies with a description of a car fleeing the scene, and officers tracked it to a nearby mobile home park.

When officers found the car, they handcuffed a suspect outside a mobile home, then knocked on its door. Tregre said someone with a dog answered.

"Another person exited that trailer with an assault weapon and ambushed my two officers," Tregre said. Two deputies were killed and a third was wounded.

Two suspects were wounded in the shootout before officers subdued them, Tregre said.

The deputies killed in the shooting have been identified as 34-year-old Brandon Nielsen, a two-year veteran and 27-year-old Jeremy Triche, a four-year veteran.

The wounded deputies have been identified as 33-year-old Michael Scott Boyington, a three-year veteran, and 30-year-old Jason Triche, a 10-year veteran.

http://www.fox8live.com/story/19292845/two-officers-shot-near-laplace


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 10:11 am
@Joe Nation,
More on the tallying of gun deaths...
Quote:
Tracking Gun-Related Deaths, One Tweet At A Time
by Mark Memmott
December 28, 2012

How many Americans died on Christmas Day from a gun shot? How many have been shot and killed since the Dec. 14 mass shooting at a school in Newtown, Conn.?

No one knows for sure. Authorities pull together annual figures, but not daily reports on gun-related murders, suicides and accidental deaths.

Slate and a citizen journalist who tweets as @GunDeaths are trying to fill at least some of that information void. Their admittedly incomplete data suggest that on average, at least 17 Americans a day have died from gunshots since the Newtown shootings that claimed the lives of 20 children, seven adults and the gunman.

Dan Kois, a Slate senior editor, tells NPR's Audie Cornish that the project is "our best attempt to collect up all the gun deaths in America." The goal, he says, is to put some names and stories behind such deaths. As the debate over gun control since the shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School continues, says Kois, "it's hard to really know what kinds of decisions we should make" if more isn't known about gun-related deaths.

The information that Slate and @GunDeaths are relying on to produce an interactive chart comes from newspapers, TV stations and websites run by trained journalists. The anonymous @GunDeaths began collecting and tweeting the reports after the July mass shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo. The data are incomplete, Kois concedes. Many suicides by guns, for example, go unreported.

But he believes the project is painting a picture of the role guns play, every day, in the lives and deaths of Americans. Clicking on the icons in Slate's chart leads you to news reports about each person's death.

Twenty children and six adults were killed by a gunman at the Sandy Hook school. He also killed his mother that day, and took his own life.

As for Christmas Day, so far Slate and @GunDeaths have collected reports about 21 gun-related deaths.

And as of earlier today, they had reports of about 242 gun-related deaths since the shootings in Newtown.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/12/28/168204661/tracking-gun-related-deaths-one-tweet-at-a-time
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 10:14 am
@firefly,
Quote:
That doesn't mean we should not enact much stricter controls and regulations over guns in this country.


Such efforts will have zero affect on gun crimes any more then prohibtion cut down on drinking or the so call war on drugs had cut down on drug uses.
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 10:36 am
@BillRM,
So, you are comparing gun owners/enthusists to addicts--those who cannot live without intoxicating substances?

That would certainly fit those who keep purchasing, or already own, multiple firearms, such as yourself. Multiple firearms certainly aren't necessary for personal self-defense, which you've repeatedly said are the main reasons you own guns. When people panic, and run out to buy even more guns, particularly assault weapons, because they fear any hint of gun control, that certainly does sound like an addictive disorder--and that's what we've been seeing since the Newtown massacre.

Well, then perhaps we have to address that sort of mass mental illness--gun fetishism--in the population, just as we treat other addictive disorders.

And, logically, gun control measures certainly should not be left to the gun fetishists, any more than we let drug addicts, or drug pushers, or drug dealers, determine our drug laws.

Quote:
A society made sick by gun violence
December 27, 2012

To those opposed to tougher Maryland gun laws, I can only say that we have to start somewhere ("Battle lines form in gun debate," Dec. 19). The answer cannot be that criminals will get guns anyway so law-abiding people must have them as well to protect themselves.

We are living in a society where the character and moral differences between the good guys and the bad guys are blurring. The country is awash in paranoia and fear. The reasons for the good guys to be armed may be purer and nobler than the reasons for the bad guys. But the consequence of the indiscriminate arming of society is civil war and vigilante justice that take an emotional toll.

Even if most gun owners are responsible, they are like all humans subject to anxiety, depression and impetuosity. They make mistakes. Statistics show that gun owners more often kill themselves or members of their family than use their weapons successfully against an intruder.

The Newtown shooting was dramatic and hence it galvanized society against violence. But what of the people who die every day from guns? Only a few weeks ago a grandfather shot his own granddaughter after mistaking her for an intruder.

Americans have such a high level of anxiety that if I were lost on a street in America I would hesitate to knock a door to ask for help for fear I might be shot by a frightened but "perfectly normal" gun owner.

The subliminal anxiety that runs through American society takes a big toll on the country's mental health. Our mental health issues cannot be dismissed as merely genetic. They spring from isolation, abuse, drug addiction and the violence embedded in society and in our media.

The widespread arming of an anxious society fed on a steady diet of violence produces terror and anarchy. That causes more anxiety and a greater hankering for guns. That is not what the founding fathers intended for America when they wrote the Second Amendment.

Teachers, pilots and doctors each have their callings and careers. The notion we should arm all professionals who come in contact with the public, including elementary school teachers and college professors, is an idea so repugnant that its proponents should be ashamed.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-guns-20121227,0,93249.story


BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 10:46 am
@firefly,
Quote:
So, you are comparing gun owners/enthusists to addicts--those who cannot live without intoxicating substances?


Addicts so that everyone who wished to had have a drink during prohibtion and drink illegally was an alcoholic and everyone who illegally have a joint in most of the country now is a drug addict?

Sorry but if you make anything illegal that people desire and feel like they have a right to enjoy or own you are going to do far more harm then good.

The so call war on drugs does not work and have done far greater harm and cause far more deaths then having drugs legal.

When will people like you learn that laws are not magical.
parados
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 10:51 am
@BillRM,
Of course if we outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns.



But it does mean we could put all those with guns in jail and take their guns away.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 11:01 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
When will people like you learn that laws are not magical.


Well, all indications are that gun and ammunition sales have gone through the roof in recent weeks...so if your side is correct, we Americans will all be much safer in 2013. If your side is correct, there should be much less in the way of nut-case shootings.

We'll see.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 11:04 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
When will people like you learn that laws are not magical.

No one ever said laws are magical, but tough, and consistently enforced, laws work a lot better than lax, and inadequately enforced, laws.

And that's why we new much tighter controls and regulations over guns in this country, and not the ineffective ones that the NRA approves of and permits. Gun fetishists can't be allowed to determine the gun laws any more than drug lords, and drug dealers, and drug addicts, can be allowed to determine our drug laws.

Can't you even imagine a society without guns--or see its benefits? If you can't, you're like the alcoholic who can't imagine a life without booze, and that's something that is regarded as an illness.

Quote:
Death to all guns

Is it time? Can we just say it outright? Let’s try it:

Guns are, socially and ethically, devastating. Worthless. They add nothing of positive, intrinsic value to a culture, a people, a country. They only diminish, destroy, display an awesome sense of malformed ego and disastrously warped humanity.

Too much? Too far? Not really. I’m sure you already sense that all those cartoonish action movies, thuggish hip-hop songs, clunky old westerns, ultra-violent video games and the racks of high-caliber weaponry over at Cabela sporting goods and the local gun show – all of which we’ve been led to believe are so essential to our national identity – none of them offer anything of deep worth to the culture; no authentic masculinity, no real patriotism, no genuine power or strength or class. Heart, soul or integrity? Don’t be absurd.

It’s all a vulgar illusion, Hollywood glitter-bombing, manufactured mythology in service of shameless capitalism and a false, bloody American ideology that’s never served us well and only made us the ugly, violence-drunk stepchild of the civilized world. Don’t you already know?

Here is the truth: Guns are pain. Guns are impotence masquerading as virility, shame masquerading as valor, the devil disguised as an outrageously misinterpreted chunk of the Constitution that was never meant to suffer what the fat lords of the gun lobbies have made it suffer.

Do you wish to speak of false gods? Things virulently anti-Christian? The antithesis of everything a peaceful, advanced country is ideally supposed to be founded on? Because guns are all that and more. Jesus would be disgusted.

Perhaps you think guns and the current cluster of feeble laws on the books are generally fine, and it’s the mental health industry that needs the help? Perhaps you think Sandy Hook, Aurora, Colorado, Virginia Tech, et al could be better prevented by improved treatment for the mentally ill?

Maybe. But a culture of gun fanaticism feeds insanity. Put the other way: insanity loves guns. They are interlinked and inextricable. Too-easy access to guns is a huge part of the problem, but even bigger is the gun fetishism so brutally interwoven into our society and popular culture, from childhood on up, that provides the hateful lie that guns aren’t just macho and all-American, they’re downright required for ensuring your sadism is remembered forever.

Sandy Hook isn’t just about mental illness. It’s about mental illness shot through with endless images of ultra-violence and 300 million guns currently in American hands. It’s about insanity allowed to multiply its destructive powers by a factor of 61 mass murders in the past 30 years. It’s about gun-loving survivalist mothers of mentally ill kids stockpiling weapons for herself, teaching her kids to shoot, preparing for society’s collapse, all surely fed by right-wing fearmongers and idiots.

Do not misunderstand. I’m well acquainted with the sporting thrill. I know the supposed nobility and beauty to be found in ethical and honest hunting (which I believe still exists, despite the canned hunts and the repulsive Texas exotic game preserves). I know the outright fun to be had shooting beautifully made, powerful weaponry at paper targets, clay pigeons, bottles and beer cans out in the woods. I get it.

Do you know what else is fun? Piloting tanks into buildings. Shooting meth. Driving my car 150 MPH through busy streets, drunk. Throwing bowling balls off of skyscrapers and watching them demolish parked cars 300 feet below. Smashing windows with metal bats. Joining a Venezuelan rebel militia.

This does not mean we should indulge in them, or that they deserve a prized place in society. This does not mean the tiny adrenaline rush afforded by gun sports is worth the overall cost, or is in some way unique or precious, and therefore must be defended by men so terrified of losing their thin hold on masculinity that they must strap firearms to their giant bellies to go to Wal-Mart, just in case the terrorists want to steal their ‘97 Corolla.

Shall we ask the NRA and the gun lobby to prove it? If they have any evidence that guns are the slightest bit helpful or necessary to human development, progress, industry, spiritual development, love, family? Has any culture in the history of the civilized world ever evolved toward more munitions and antipathy, and flourished, healthy, calm and full of love?

Of course not. There is no single argument for guns that holds up, that makes any sense whatsoever, that cannot easily be disproven by fact, ancient spiritual wisdom, or common sense.

Guns do not protect more than they destroy. They do not save more lives than they kill. They do not safeguard more families than they devastate. They do not add security more than they add fear, suspicion, antagonism and hate. As has been pointed out again and again: Guns, by their very existence, insist on their own use. And their use is, singularly and without reservation, death.

So let us fantasize. Let us leave the talk of “reasonable” gun control legislation that no one really believes will come to pass to the wan politicos and scowling talking heads, and bequeath only a floating hypothetical question to the right-wing senators, NRA members and gun lobbyists right now whining about all the anger and sadness being aimed at them by a mournful nation: If one of those kids at Sandy Hook Elementary had been your kid, would you change your mind? Your heart? Your worldview?

Let us instead propose a pure and wild fantasy that has little chance of existing in our lifetime, but is all sorts of beautiful to imagine nonetheless. It goes like this:

All guns in the United States are banned outright tomorrow. Through some marvel of cultural apocalypse and social cataclysm, a new law passes and suddenly all civilian-owned firearms are forbidden forevermore. Can you imagine? Do you know what would happen next?

Nothing. Nothing would happen, save for huge torrents of panic and gun hoarding (particularly in the petrified, undereducated South), spurts of violence, a massive surge in black market sales, an insane scramble to arm up because surely the liberal zombies are coming.

There are, after all, 300 million registered guns in America, and countless more unregistered. There are stockpiles a mile high, warehouses and bunkers and shops full of death. The culture is so saturated with gun porn, it would be many years before it eased. Bottom line: An outright gun ban would have no notable effect on gun violence whatsoever, and might even serve to briefly exacerbate crime.

At first.

But then, a surefire miracle. As manufacturing halted, as the black markets slowly dried up, as availability diminished, as advertising vanished, as the virus of easy-access weaponry began to pass through the national bloodstream, why, the entire culture would shift, whole and true.

It would be nothing short of astonishing. In a short generation or two, guns and the bleak fantasy they invoke would devolve into a strange and sickly memory, a dark folklore, like looking back on the Red Scare or cigarette ads or slavery.

Gun deaths would plummet. Shooting sprees would nearly vanish. The national mood would brighten. In just a few short decades – a blink of an eye, in the long view – guns would all but disappear from the national consciousness.

And then? A weird sense of disbelief, a warped nostalgia: Was that really us? Did we really fetishize deadly weaponry so appallingly, so disastrously? Were some horribly lost Americans actually calling for teachers to carry guns into elementary schools? How many kids had to die before we finally woke up? What the hell took us so long?

http://blog.sfgate.com/morford/2012/12/18/death-to-all-guns/
JTT
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 11:10 am
@firefly,
Quote:
No one ever said laws are magical, but tough, and consistently enforced, laws work a lot better than lax, and inadequately enforced, laws.


Why, oh why isn't this followed wrt your senior politicians, FF? Why aren't so as front and center demanding that those of the highest office in the land not so wantonly break the law?

Quote:
Can't you even imagine a society without guns--or see its benefits? If you can't, you're like the alcoholic who can't imagine a life without booze.


Can't you see the hypocrisy?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 11:40 am
@parados,
Quote:
But it does mean we could put all those with guns in jail and take their guns away.


Well the war on drugs had results in more of our citizens by percents behind bars then any other industry nation on earth and more black males behind bars then was slaves in 1850s.
BillRM
 
  2  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 11:48 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Can't you even imagine a society without guns--or see its benefits


Benefits sure, of no guns but then I can dream about all humans having the power to fly around without wings or machines also.

You would tear the society apart and cause a nightmare society if you try to imposed your dreams of no firearms in the US by force of law.

Of course you would also drive up the sales of swords, combat knifes and bows unless your dream cover changing human nature.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 29 Dec, 2012 12:48 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Well the war on drugs had results in more of our citizens by percents behind bars then any other industry nation on earth and more black males behind bars then was slaves in 1850s.

Gee, I wonder how many citizens are in prison for gun-related crimes, or crimes in which guns were used--because guns are so easily obtainable in our country?

And you really expect anyone to believe you are concerned with the fate of black males in this country? Laughing You certainly didn't care about the fate of an unarmed black teen in Florida, who was profiled as a criminal, simply because he was black, wearing a hoodie, and walking home in the rain after a trip to the store. And you've told us you've got to arm yourself against all those black people you expect will riot if Zimmeman's acquitted. Can't trust those black people, can you, BillRM?

Legalizing drugs wouldn't help our country's problem with drugs any more than urging an armed citizenry is a rational solution to gun violence.

More freely available drugs=more drug abuse. More freely available guns=more gun violence.

Quote:
You would tear the society apart and cause a nightmare society if you try to imposed your dreams of no firearms in the US by force of law.

Is Australia a "nightmare society"?



 

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