mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 12:26 pm
@mysteryman,
BTW, if you want to have a serious discussion, you can start by being honest and tell me where you live.
I want to know where your bias comes from.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 12:44 pm
MM:
I don't think you caught what Izzy said about the American bases being in England and elsewhere (we essentially had the Soviet Union surrounded by bomber bases and listening posts) in order to insure that, if there was a World War III, it would be fought in Europe.

To my mind, the intimidation was the genius of John Foster Dulles. It was two-fold. We kept the Soviet Bear at bay (after allowing the USSR to homestead in Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Austria for the next fifty some years) and we kept saying "If the USA isn't in England, West Germany, Italy, Turkey and Iran, the Soviets will be at your doorsteps in the morning."

Notice I didn't mention France. DeGaulle threw the US and NATO out.

The point is, we did our damnedest to make sure the World War III would be fought over the same acreage as all the wars since Napoleon, as opposed to having the Soviets fly over the Pole and invade through the farms of Indiana and the streets of Chicago.

Joe(that was when we thought of wars as global events)Nation
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 01:05 pm
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
the genius of John Foster Dulles.


Another oxymoron.

Quote:
"If the USA isn't in England, West Germany, Italy, Turkey and Iran, the Soviets will be at your doorsteps in the morning."


Which was a monstrous lie meant to cover the fact that the Americans were invading other countries left and right, installing brutal dictators and stealing those countries wealth.

How come you always forget that part, Joe?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 01:20 pm
@Joe Nation,
An unusually distorted and very nonsensical view of the real history.

The USA didn't "allow" the USSR to "homestead" in easter Europe: they took it, recovering the old Tsarist Territories of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Moldavia, stationing over 50 divisions of Soviet troops in these regions and deporting nearly a million Estonoians and Latvians to Russia while replacint them with Russians. The European powers had long since (1814) acclimated themselves to this empire, and were little inclined, particularly in the aftermath of WWII, to take action top prevent it. Later through well-organized political action they took over Czechoslovakia, Roumania, Bulgaria and Hungary. They would have added Greece and the former Yugoslavia had not circumstances prevented it. We never had the ability to evict the USSR from these territories and our European Allies had no stomach whatever eeven for an attempt at it. The Soviets, repeatedly, in Poland, Czechoslovakia and other plkaces demonstrated their willingnbess to use force to retain their empire.

Ae time passed it was the restiveness of the people of the satellite countries and the growing prosperity of Western Europe that insured that Europe was a likely battlefield in any WWIII. We didn't create those circumstances. Indeed by organizing NATO we merely limited the growth of the Soviet empire - throughout a period in which it maintained enormous superiority in conventional weapons and military presence along the Eastern European frontier.

The singular feature of the Cold war was the observablke fact that any conflict between the Soviet Union and the Ubited States would be worldwide and would directly involve our own territory.

You are dead wrong in the fanciful absurdities you are peddling her.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 01:21 pm
@Joe Nation,
France didn't throw out all the Americans...

http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/86/47786-004-88E8F6CF.jpg
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 01:55 pm



Meanwhile, Romney now leads Obama in the state of OHIO
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 02:03 pm
@mysteryman,
If you look at my profile you can see where I live. You'll have to use a map if you want to know any more.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 02:07 pm
@Joe Nation,
I think you hit the nail on the head Joe. if I were American, I'd probably think that was a good idea, but I'm not, and I get a bit tired of the likes of Finn telling me how I should be grateful all the ******* time.

What really worries me about Romney, is that his one foreign policy initiative is to attack Iran. If he does get in, and get his way, his presidency will be every bit as blood drenched as Bush's.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 02:19 pm
@izzythepush,
I know where you live, and I know where Southhampton is.
I was referring to JTT.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 03:10 pm
@izzythepush,
Why not? The U.S. turns american citizens over to foreign countries all the time.
mysteryman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 03:32 pm
@izzythepush,
Actually, he resigned in 1976 because he had early onset Alzheimer's disease. The Queen went to 19 Downing Street for his resignation, the only PM besides Churchill she has ever done that for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson#Resignation

I admit that there are several conspiracies regarding his resignation, but I don't see any about a US led coup.
I do see a reference to a military coup led by Louis Misbegotten, I have seen speculation that he was a Soviet agent, and there are other conspiracy theories, but nothing involving the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories


0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 04:04 pm
@JTT,
Have you decided to not have a serious discussion after all?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 07:47 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
BTW, if you want to have a serious discussion, you can start by being honest and tell me where you live.
I want to know where your bias comes from.


Where I live makes no difference whatsoever to American war crimes, to American terrorism, to the grand theft that the US has been engaged in with most every country in the world.

You are an ignorant coward, MM. I hold no bias. The facts, which you studiously ignore come from US sources, many or most from the US government itself. The only reason you hadn't heard of these crimes is because the US has the most effective system of propaganda in the world.

Now that you know where your bias comes from, how it is founded upon layer after layer of lies, you should be willing to discuss these heinous crimes.

But you're not. You've made that apparent time after time. You wouldn't even become involved in the thread for describing good things the US has done. Now that's truly telling.
mysteryman
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 07:56 pm
@JTT,
But it does make a difference in your bias. I am perfectly willing to have the discussion, but you have to meet me halfway.
Also, I listed your usual talking points, I will let you pick the first one we discuss.
I freely admit that the US is not perfect, and has made some mistakes.
You are the person that has blamed every war on the planet on the US.

So, to understand your point of view I will ask again, where do you live?
Its a valid question, and if you won't even answer that, how can I reasonably expect you to have an honest discussion about anything?
I know you don't live in the US, but that's all I know.
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2012 08:13 pm
@mysteryman,
I have no bias, MM. What I have is a deep dislike for hypocrisy, for those people who have made a mockery of what the US was supposed to be. I dislike people like you who defend the unrelenting war crimes, the ongoing terrorism that occurs on a daily basis.

This is nothing but a red herring to allow you to take the cowardly way out, as you have always done to now.

Quote:
I freely admit that the US is not perfect, and has made some mistakes.


War crimes are not "mistakes", MM. Your ignorance is deep. Just since WWII every president has committed war crimes. Your whole life has been lived in a country that rivals the crimes of WWII war criminals.

Quote:
You are the person that has blamed every war on the planet on the US.


More lies and red herrings. Forget the wars and focus on the illegal invasions, which initiate the war crimes.

Noam Chomsky goes over list of War Crimes for which US presidents are responsible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aUbEQNWQgM

Quote:
War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

The brutality with which the US government exercises its “war on terror” is condemned both by the court of international public opinion and by the principles of international law governing human rights. The wars of aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan and the torture of detainees are clearly defined as war crimes by the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Conventions, the Convention against Torture and other treaties to which the United States is a signatory. Under the cover of "national security," other countries in the region have been drawn into the on-going wars.

The Principles of International Law, recognized in the Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal and in the Judgment of the Tribunal, provide no defense for war crimes. Similarly, the Convention Against Torture, which defines torture as a war crime, provides that no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Therefore, the prohibition on war crimes is absolute, not relative, meaning that there is no justification for war crimes despite the particular circumstances in respective countries. U.S. Justice Robert Jackson proclaimed at Nuremberg: “No grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy. The same applies to other war crimes as well. The war crimes of one’s opponents are no justification for one’s own."

http://warcriminalswatch.org/


izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2012 02:50 am
@RABEL222,
The extradition agreement between the UK and USA is very lopsided. A far greater burden of proof is required by the UK. That's been discussed in parliament. The main problem I have, is that we are not subject to your laws, we're supposed to be a sovereign nation. If someone has broken our laws they should be tried over here.

I'm not talking about British citizens who have committed crimes inside America and then fled. I have no problems extraditing them.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2012 10:36 am
@JTT,
Here is a surprise for you, I agree with most of what Chomsky said.
I know you don't want to hear that, because it isn't what you believe, but that's your problem, not mine.

I have never denied the crimes committed, I do have a problem with your claims.
You said that every president of the US is a war criminal...
Quote:
Shouldn't every president since the US was established be held accountable for their crimes against humanity and their terrorism?


http://able2know.org/topic/199238-7

So, I will ask you again, how can you justify this outlandish and totally false claim?

You have said the US is the largest exporter of terrorism, but if that's true why do most terrorists use old soviet bloc weapons?
I am talking about soviet or Chinese made am-47's, old RPG's and other weapons made by the old communist countries.
Why aren't they using American made weapons?

I fully admit that this country has committed some criminal acts in its history, but the US is not the evil monstrosity you want to think it is.
Also, you have accused every American serviceman, former or current, of being a war criminal, and that is such an egregious lie on your part as to be almost libelous.
Yet you refuse to back that claim up with even the slightest shred of evidence.

So, I don't have a problem with admitting the fact that the US isn't perfect, and I can also admit that the US has committed its share of war crimes.
However, I do have a problem with your statements that you know are outright lies.
One last thing, you once accused the US of being responsible for every war going on anywhere on the planet, but ran away when I listed 3 wars and asked you how the US was responsible.

So, if you want an honest discussion, the tell me where you are from, so I can understand where your hatred comes from, and respond to what I am saying, instead of ignoring it.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2012 07:42 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Here is a surprise for you, I agree with most of what Chomsky said.


Good for you, MM!

Quote:
I know you don't want to hear that, because it isn't what you believe, but that's your problem, not mine.


I don't know what you're driving at. I'm overjoyed to hear that.

Quote:
I have never denied the crimes committed,


I believe you did, but that hardly makes no nevermind now, MM.

Quote:
I do have a problem with your claims.
You said that every president of the US is a war criminal...


Well, for one thing, they all spent the years after the founding committing acts of genocide against Native Americans. But I'm willing to retract that as there's not much use hauling the bones of those guys before a tribunal.

Quote:
You have said the US is the largest exporter of terrorism, but if that's true why do most terrorists use old soviet bloc weapons?
I am talking about soviet or Chinese made am-47's, old RPG's and other weapons made by the old communist countries.
Why aren't they using American made weapons?


You're still mighty naive.

Quote:
Nicaragua is not the biggest covert action, it is the most famous one. Afghanistan is, we spent several hundred million dollars in Afghanistan. We've spent somewhat less than that, but close, in Nicaragua....

[When the U.S. doesn't like a government], they send the CIA in, with its resources and activists, hiring people, hiring agents, to tear apart the social and economic fabric of the country, as a technique for putting pressure on the government, hoping that they can make the government come to the U.S.'s terms, or the government will collapse altogether and they can engineer a coup d'etat, and have the thing wind up with their own choice of people in power.

Now ripping apart the economic and social fabric of course is fairly textbook-ish. What we're talking about is going in and deliberately creating conditions where the farmer can't get his produce to market, where children can't go to school, where women are terrified inside their homes as well as outside their homes, where government administration and programs grind to a complete halt, where the hospitals are treating wounded people instead of sick people, where international capital is scared away and the country goes bankrupt. If you ask the state department today what is their official explanation of the purpose of the Contras, they say it's to attack economic targets, meaning, break up the economy of the country. Of course, they're attacking a lot more.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html


That is textbook terrorism, MM. And the US has done this to most of the countries in the world.

Isn't the following another textbook example of terrorism?

Quote:
According to WND’s Aaron Klein, “Egyptian security officials” revealed that Ambassador Christopher Stevens “played a central role in recruiting jihadists to fight Bashar al-Assad’s regime in Syria.” Stevens was reportedly a key contact for Saudi Arabian officials, who wanted to recruit fighters from North Africa and Libya, and send them to Syria by way of Turkey.

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/arnold-ahlert/arming-jihadists-backfires-in-benghazi/
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 07:38 am
Here's a good place to start, MM.

http://able2know.org/topic/200835-1
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 07:42 am


http://kingsjester.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/benghazigate-a-matter-of-transparency/
0 Replies
 
 

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