U.S. middle east policy, pros and cons: discuss

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

One can understand why the average Palestinian may only be able to express rage, but they are not being served by their leaders who keep insisting on outcomes they will never obtain whether it be through violence or making demands of America.

It should make everyone consider how their leaders personally profit by a neverending condition of strife.

I believe that the reason Abbas refuses to make peace is because he knows he would be assassinated by his own people if he did so (he's probably right), and he doesn't wish to die.

I believe that Arafat refused to make peace for the same reason.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

The billions of dollars America paid to Mubarak is not the same as giving money to Egypt.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Your rationalizations are becoming tiresome.

This in reply to the common sense that generalisations don't mean 'all' (as you tried to make out) Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Ironically, for someone so disdainful of idealism, you fail to acknowledge that a great deal of support for Israel is religious idealism

A complete diversion from the thread of conversation you 'replied' to.

Your dishonesty in conversation is no longer worth conversing with.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

It doesn't really matter what the Palestinians do, the Israelis tell the American media what to broadcast, and they do what they're told. If Americans really knew the truth of the occupation they wouldn't be anywhere near as biased.

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@izzythepush,

Hi Izzy,

That's what I've been wondering - just how filtered the information we receive in the outside world is...but don't take that as recognition that one or the other is right...just as recognition that I am aware that this sort of thing happens. My guess is that the Arabic networks also indulge in some of the same (broadcasting mostly just one side)

I do know that what gets back to Australia in terms of what western companies do in 3rd world areas, is rather filtered. I've found this out over a long period of time.

Human nature leads people to want to see and hear what agrees with their views. Psychological tests have found that, even when listening to the same thing - people remember best what agrees with their already held views...that we tend to filter out what doesn't agree with us. So two sided news in a country that already holds a particular view...makes the viewers uncomfortable...which can be bad for ratings.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

The billions of dollars America paid to Mubarak is not the same as giving money to Egypt.

Stop making things up. We did not give the money to Mubarak. It was used to fund the Egyptian military. And that is the same as giving it to Egypt.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

the Israelis tell the American media what to broadcast, and they do what they're told.

Your anti-Semitic babbling gets quite deranged from time to time.

izzythepush wrote:

If Americans really knew the truth of the occupation they wouldn't be anywhere near as biased.

Americans do know the truth. And we are not biased at all.

That's why your lies are always dismissed out of hand.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Americans do know the truth. And we are not biased at all.

Americans (this is a generalisation) know what's taught to them by their govt & media...and what they care to find out.

The vast majority don't care to find out....that leads to ill informed biases based on what is commonly available (what the govt & media tells people)

There are of course, well informed Americans.

I'm reminded of a funny story - of an American nurse that I met...she came to Australia with her husband, and flew into Canberra in the middle of winter with no warm clothing. Canberra is in the foothills of the Australian Alps (yes, we do have some tallish mountains). She said 'I thought Australia was no bigger than Texas, and hot"

I also note that many Americans I met in the US had a great deal of trouble distinguishing Accents from the outside world. I was asked a few times if I was British (the accents sound very, very different)

I found the people very pleasant, but not particularly knowledgeable about the outside world...though one bright spark, as I was about to pay for a ticket to Angel Island/Alcatraz said to me (before I'd even said a word) 'Oh you're from Australia'. I asked how he knew that, and he said "You have colourful money in your wallet"

Regarding geographic literacy, and considering the Iraq war - a reflection of interest in the outside world
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/0502_060502_geography.html

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Re accents, have you seen Only Fools And Horses? There's an episode where Del and Rodney go on holiday in America and everyone thinks they're Australian.

The run up to the Iraq war is a prime example of the American Media,(with some miniscule exeptions,) staying on message about the need to invade Iraq, ignoring anti-war demonstrations in America, and the very flimsy evidence about WMDs.

"Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the [U.S.] media." Noam Chomsky.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Ah yes, that was something that reinforced my opinion about lack of interest in the outside world....the apparent weight of numbers that showed a lack of understanding of govt & war lead ups...and lack of understanding of human nature (specifically in relation to the part of human nature that allows politicians to manipulate public opinion into a war fervour)...

....but as much that the news actually provided enough coverage to know that WoMD did not exist in Iraq (I had never even heard the term WoMD used by a politician before)

A decent percentage of Australians also suffered from this ignorance, though from the face of it, not near the high percentage of Americans.

The reason for the Iraq war - I have never found a satisfactory explanation, although I've seen around 5 theories on why it occurred - 3 of them soundly reasoned. I guess only the US govt at the time will ever know for sure.

I haven't seen 'Only Fools and Horses'

1 Reply

@vikorr,

The behaviour of the American Media in the run up to that war has been much commented on. I can't talk for Australia, but the BBC did stay objective throughout, reporting on protests and questioning the strength of the evidence. In the UK the vast majority were opposed to invasion, and it was an affront to democracy allowing our troops to take part. Since then the laws have been changed to make sure a prime minister cannot go to war without the approval of parliament.

Here's a taste of Only Fools And Horses.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Uh, wow, there should be no mistaking their accents for Australian.

Our ABC is usually pretty good in terms of what it reports. The ABC doesn't get the ratings that the BBC does. Generally speaking though, I don't watch any news. I read the newspaper, but our local paper's standard of reporting is attrocious (it's a News Corp publication), so I take it with a grain of salt.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

That does not negate the fact that Israel was created for the benefit of the European Jews. The Sephardic Jews were caught up in the fiasco that followed Israel’s creation. Their expulsion from the countries of the Middle East benefited Israel in populating the country.

It does not matter for whom it was created. Just like the U.S. was created for the benefit of Protestants that did not fit into the religious beliefs of Europe. And now the U.S. is a very diverse society that the world thinks of as a diverse society (and so many people of diverse backgrounds want to come to the U.S.).

So, Israel presently has a Sephardic majority, and their countries of origin in the Middle East do not want them back. No different than the displaced people after the Holocaust that could not return to their countries of origin.

You seem to have little problem with the fact that Israel is actually composed of people that would have no country to live in, if it were not for the Zionist state, in my opinion.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

And you continue to leave the problem of Israel's repression of the Palestinian peoples unaddressed by dragging your red herring across the discussion. I for one, sir, refuse to follow!

The "effect" is "repression," in your opinion. And, the "cause"? Does suicide bombs ring a bell?

Also, the "Palestinean people" is like saying "migrating Arabs that in the early 20th century thought that Israel could be their new home." Prior to the 20th century, Israel was a back-alley in the Ottoman Empire, and far fewer Arabs lived there, without an identity, other than being Arabs living in the Ottoman Empire. Only when the Zionist Jews started irrigating the land, and showing the back-alley could have some value, did the Arabs wake up to the "swallows returning to Capistrano," and declare themselves a people, as I understand history.

The Palestinean people are not being "repressed." They are being managed, so they do not kill Israelis, in my opinion.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

If Americans really knew the truth of the occupation they wouldn't be anywhere near as biased.

You can exclude 60 million or so Christian Evangelicals from your analysis' conclusion. And, they are Americans with the right to believe as they choose. You seem to cherry-pick which Americans you make reference to.

Also, exclude many of about five million American Jews.

And, I hope you do not pooh-pooh the above, believing that anyone that has a concern about Israel remaining a Zionist state (aka, fulfillment of bible prophecy) by calling these pro-Zionists "religious 'nutters.'" I do not call you an "idealogue," even if that might be correct. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not been swept up by an anti-Israel idealogy.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

If the billions of dollars we pay Egypt every year to honor its treaty isn't reason enough for them to do so, then Morsi should tell us to keep our money... Of course he won't.

He's like a whiney, spoiled teenager who decides to mouth off after receiving his allowance.

Did you catch his latest 'speech' at the UN? He's like an Ahmadinejad-wannabe only he fails.

Referring to anyone who insults his 'Prophet', he said...

Quote:

“We reject this. We cannot accept it,” Morsi said, his voice thin with anger. “We will not allow anyone to do this by word or deed.”

Code for unleash the mob!!!

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@Foofie,

Quote:

The Palestinean people are not being "repressed." They are being managed, so they do not kill Israelis, in my opinion.

Someone needs to manage Israel as well so that they don't keep killing Palestinians. Of course I realize that to express that opinion anywhere other than on this website, is almost considered blasphemy.

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@izzythepush,

Perhaps, but whose would that be and since Marsi is now collecting the dough, I'm sure he will make sure it's spent on the welfare of the Egyptian people.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I knew it!

Damned Jews run everything in this country.

1 Reply

@Irishk,

Indeed.

That kind of talk scores points with the Arab Street and so he'll keep it up.

Since his boys killed Sadat for signing a treaty with Egypt, he's going to need to talk tough while roughly adheres to it and gets to keep our billions.

1 Reply

U.S. middle east policy, pros and cons: discuss

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