U.S. middle east policy, pros and cons: discuss

Why dont you read some history that isent Isralie propaganda and maybe you might get some idea of what he is talking about.

They are not generalized statements. Read your history. They're easy to find on the internet if you bother to search.

First of all, look at the innocent Palestinians killed vs Israelis. That will be a good start. Those Palestinians are dead, because they're Palestinians.

I think there is little doubt that the Israelis overplayed their hand following their military victory in the 1967 war during which they took the West bank territory from Jordan; the Golan heights from Syria; and a large part of the Siani during a war involving all these nations. Israel started the fighting with a preemptive attack on all three foes, but it is also true that the three were clearly preparing to strijke Israel and that Egypt & Syria (then united0 had already taken acts of war in closing Israel's access to the Gulf of Aquaba.

Israel occupied these territories but failed to provide for any political accomodation with their populations, perhaps hoping they could use them as leverage for recognition by their neighbors and eventual peace with them. This was compromised by new Israeli settlements, particularly on the Eastern border of the West Bank and in the Golan.

However, none of this alters or obscures the fact that the vast majority of settlers of Israel were European Jews fleeing the concentration & extermination camps of Nazi territories and who were generally no longer welcome in their former European homes, even in Nazi occupied countries. The mass movement of Jews fro Europe was a direct result of their persecution and attempted extermination in Europe.

The conflict between Christian Europe and the Moslem Mideast and North Africa, began with Moslem conquests in both Eastern and Western Europe, and wars and Crusades continued on and off for seven centuries, more or less on an equal basis. The modern age saw an increasing superiority on the part of the European powers and by the early 19th century the then Ottoman and then Persian Empires (nominally the sovereign government of much of the Moslem world) were weak and backward relative to European powers all to willing to exploit them.

The French conquest of North Africa (Tunis, Algeria and Morrocco) started as early as 1836. Decades later the British bought the stoick of the Egyptian Suez Canal company and later used that as a pretext for military occupation and the establishment of a British "protectorate" of this nominally Ottoman territory. In the second half of the 19th century, the Ottomans were caught up as pawns in the struggles between the Empires of France, Britain, and Russia along with(after 1872) the growing ambitions of the new German State. The Russians engaged in continuous war with the Persians and widespread ethnic cleansing throughout the Caucasus; while the British alternately struggled against the Turks or the Russians, depending on whom they feared most at the moment.

In the years leading up to WWI the British, French and Russians agreed to jointly destriy the Ottoman empire, both to further their own aims for expanded empire and to prevent German economic investment and influence in a modernized Middle East. The British and the French went so far as to agree on the division of the Ottoman territories they had not yet conquored: the French were to get what is now Syria, Lebanon and Mosul (the northern, Kurdish, province of what is now Iraq); The British were to get everything else. This was formalized in the Sykes Piquot agreement between Britain and France, with the approval of the Russians, concluded soon after the start of WWI. It is particularly noteworthy here that the opening campaigns of the allied powers in WWI were agianst the Ottomans in Gallipoli, and not in Europe.

Meanwhile a very fundamentalist Whabbi Moslem movement under the leadership of Ibn Saud in southern Arabia was threatening the former Hashemite Arab rulers of Mecca and Medina. To further their dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire during WWI the British organized an uprising of Middle Eastern Arabs against their Ottoman overlords and gave leadership of the uprising to the Hashemite leader, Hussein, promising him leadership of both this then present territories and of the Palestine region of the Middle East. Meanwhile, to gain financial support for the War in Europe the British also secretly promised (Balfour Agreement) the creation of a Zionist homeland in Palestine after the conclusion of WWI. None of this was made clear to our idiot president Woodrow Wilson when he was induced to join the bloodbath in Europe, and act that primarily enabled the British and the French to successfully conclude their conquest of the Ottoman state.

The rest is fairly well-known, The betrayal of the British promises to their former Arab allies; and vindictive treaty imposed on Germany - both in Paris in 1919,together with only flabbily enforcement by the now exhausted European powers, the rise of rise of Soviet revolution in Russia and Facism in Italy and Germany, culminating in the global conflict of WWII, and the systematic effort to exterminate the jewish population of Europe from Holland to the Urals.

Now we should ask ourselves just who are the Moslems so pissed off at, and who, besides themselves has caused their current backward political, social and economic, development ?

Well, revelette, this is a very frequent mistranslation occuring over several years, isn't it.

Yes, because of the strength of the Israel lobby.

Will you also tell everyone that my mother wore combat boots?

Regardless of your making an ad hominem about my mother, you still believe that your subjective belief in what Israel may, or may not, do to protect its citizens is valid. You do have a high opinion of your thinking. No room to be incorrect, considering the UN, before you were born, accepted a Zionist state in the Middle East for the express purpose of eliminating future venomous genocide against Jews. Do you not like history before 1948? Don't answer, I am not interested in your one-sided attitude, considering as a non-Muslim and non-Jew, you have no dog in this hunt.

It's not a matter of "protecting its citizens." It's about stealing other's property illegally.

Your mother certainly did fail in your "moral upbringing." You're blind to the sins of your fellow Zionists.

Thou shalt not steal.

Yes it has been; also been corrected time and time again to little result.

I would guess at a world that considers them not equal on several levels?

Is there a doorman at the entrance to the lobby? A canopy? Does the building allow dogs?

The Israel lobby is not as strong as the National Rifle Association lobby, in my opinion. But, that is how the U.S. works. The teeming masses do not know how to organize, nor do they care oftentimes, in my opinion. Just give them a truck, a dog, and a girl with long hair that talks with a twang. And, that truck has got to have big tires.

Do Jews also control Britain? (Just a joke.)

Why are you comparing apples and oranges? It's strictly your personal opinion without much in the way of rational thinking or logic.

Please explain how the NRA and Israel lobby compares?

Talking to Foofie is a bit like talking to an old man who can't finish a sentence because he doesn't remember how it started.

He is a stranger to Logic.

Well, that was my way of putting it.



One thing is the assertion that "the UN accepted a Zionist state in the Middle East for the express purpose of eliminating future venomous genocide against Jews," another thing is the exclusivity that that Zionist state practices in regard to the Palestinian refugees that were the victims of the Zionists' ethnic cleansing of the areas they came to control after the Civil and Arab-Israeli Wars that ensued after the UN's declaration.

The UN did not accept an exclusive Zionist state and called for the return of the refugees after the wars, and obligation that the Zionists have to this day reneged upon.

My liking of history before 1948 has no bearing on the fact that the Holocaust does not justify the Zionists' repression of the Palestinian peoples.

I do have a dog in this hunt seeing as how my country has involved itself in this conflict. Whether or not I am a Muslim or a Jew is irrelevant in regard to the matter.



You're not the boss of me!

You should correctly say that I am not in your chain of command.

The only "chain of command" you belong to is in the Zionist club. I'm sure you'd be a general by now.

Actually, in my regular New Yorker life, I have nothing, and I mean nothing, to do with the goings on of Israel. However, in this hotbed of anti-Zionism, I think the Goyim need to realize that one American Jew would like to see Israel survive, so my fellow American (Goyim) will not be flooded one day by six or seven million Israelis that are fleeing their homeland, due to losing a war.

I do it for you!

so you're saying the US is a little skittish about yiddish


oy vey

Excuse me a moment - but what I said
is an accurate summary of a ridiculously exaggerated statement...if you didn't mean to reference this, please don't reference my whole post.

Obviously his use of 'lives' is used here as a 'comparison' to the loss of Jewish lives during the holocaust - it's ridiculous to ever compare slave labour camps + genocide in the same breath as dispossession + oppression.

CI misused his generalised comments.
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As for the dispossession - I learned some things today :

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/05533C691C42EE8C8525747100815F5D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2006%20Opinion%20Editorials/September/9%20o/The%20Catastrophe%20of%20Palestine%201948%20Dispossession%20and%20Exile%20By%20Steven%20Katsineris.htm
http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking-gun-arab-immigration-into-palestine
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html

Unfortunately, I found that information was complicated in some respects.

It seems around 400k (from memory) were dispossessed during 1948, but there are 4.5M in near country refugee countries today (plus others around the world) - with some of the increase due to birth rates among the original refugees...leaving a question mark over the source of the increase (ie. birth rate alone, or further refugees leaving Palestine).

The numbers & flow are rather difficult to actually work out. If anyone knows a couple of decent sites on them, I'd be interested to read them.

Hmmm, and can anyone verify this map?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. There's a huge difference between what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians vs what anybody can do in the US. Just because the US supports Israel with their illegal takeover of other people's property doesn't equate to what anybody can do in the US.

On the same token, just because Jews suffered from the holocaust doesn't give them license to steal other people's property.

Just because the US government looks the other way when private property is stolen from the Palestinians, that doesn't mean the international courts or the Geneva Convention allows this crime.

You are totally confused.