U.S. middle east policy, pros and cons: discuss

Israel itself is becoming a liability to the very purpose it was established for.

You are very ignorant, aren't you?

No nation state has the right to start gun battles in another country.

Mossad engaged in criminal behaviour.

No other country would behave like that in a supposed allied state.

How would you feel if it was your street that got shot up?

If there is an attack on Iran, the naval base will be a prime target.

InfraBlue wrote:

You're making a lot of paranoid assumptions about genocide.

Yeah, right.

Excuse me, if you are going to engage in a discussion - please stop jumping all over the place when your statements are shown to be silly.

InfraBlue wrote:

You're making a lot of paranoid assumptions about genocide.

vikorr wrote:

Paranoid? For suggesting the mere possibility (given the massive hatred of Israel in the area)?

InfraBlue wrote:

You did make the assertion that, "just as the Jews discriminate against the Muslims, once the Muslims were in power (as they are the majority), they would discriminate against the Jews."

As you see you went from claiming I possess paranoia re genocide...to when that was shown to be such a silly claim...attempting to make it out that you were referring to some other paranoia. That makes for a nonsensical conversation.

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What that shows is a distinct lack of stereotyping and bigotry that to a large part underlies the impasse towards a solution to this conflict.

Well, stereotyping and bigotry are part of the impasse...but that's not what your comments show...they still show a lack of understanding of hatreds, cause & effect, and history.

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What should cease to exist is the Israeli regime. Don't conflate the regime with the people.

You mean their system of government? The one that keeps the Jewish people ruling Israel? And you would replace it with a system that saw Israel cease to exist?

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Why wouldn't it support Israel as a truly democratic, pluralistic and egalitarian one?

Because it wouldn't exist under your scheme.

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To a cynical worldview, perhaps.

Well, I would say you were an idealist, rather than a realist. But where passions and ideals are involved, cynicism is an easy enough target to blame for disagreements.

InfraBlue wrote:

Israel itself is becoming a liability to the very purpose it was established for.

No. Israel is learning that once a people have a territority, one acts just like other territories. In other words, Jews get to act like Gentile nations, and have lost the moral high ground as a minority underdog in a host nation.

People are just so surprised that it is Jews acting like Gentiles.

Ok then, you made the assertion that once the Muslims were in power they would discriminate against the Jews. Since you don't know the future your assertion is merely an assumption.

You then speculate further and presuppose that it would end in genocide.

You are making assumptions based on presuppositions based on question begging, and all of this is based on your paranoia about "the Muslims."

You are basing your assumptions, presuppositions and question begging on your understanding of history which is colored by your stereotyping and bigotry.

The reality is that Israel is the most glaring manifestation of Western imperialism and intervention by violating the rights of the Palestinian peoples in Palestine for the benefit of a European people escaping their problems in Europe.

The reality is that what threatens Israel, and the US and the West for that matter, in their obdurate repression of the Palestinian peoples is worse than a moral and just solution to the conflict.

What, exactly, does "seeing Israel cease to exist," mean?

The reality is that Israel is the most glaring manifestation of Western imperialism and intervention by violating the rights of the Palestinian peoples in Palestine for the benefit of a European people escaping their problems in Europe.

The reality is that what threatens Israel, and the US and the West for that matter, in their obdurate repression of the Palestinian peoples is worse than a moral and just solution to the conflict.

Be that as it may, it still leaves the problem of Israel's repression of the Palestinian peoples unaddressed, and merely ignores it in favor of some bigoted assertions of what surprises people.

If you note - in making decisions aimed at solving conflict - all people (who make those decisions) have to take into account human nature, and cause & effect in order to find the path to peace....and historians study history because they believe it can help them understand the present.

That you see paranoia in 3rd party's view of a conflict, the nature of people, cause & effect, and mention of history - is a reflection of your own mind, and lack of understanding.

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You then speculate further and presuppose that it would end in genocide.

Actually what I said was I wouldn't be surprised if it ended in Genocide. That is not a presupposition that it would end in genocide - merely exactly what is says - that I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Your language use shows an agenda driven slant to misrepresent what I wrote.

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You are making assumptions based on presuppositions based on question begging, and all of this is based on your paranoia about "the Muslims."

Oh dear. Your writing reminds me of a frightened ostrich's writing '.

You do understand that it is stereotyping an individual that is not good?

You are welcome to your view of what constitutes bigotry - it has more affect on your self imposed one eyedness than on my approach to understanding.

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The reality is that what threatens Israel, and the US and the West for that matter, in their obdurate repression of the Palestinian peoples is worse than a moral and just solution to the conflict.

Yes, the oppression is obdurate.

As for it being worse...that, I wonder if the Jews hold the same opinion?

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What, exactly, does "seeing Israel cease to exist," mean?

When a country ceases to exist should be utterly obvious.

Do you notice that this discussion goes nowhere? You are an idealist...it's simple...in your safe little world, you are able to ignore how humanity works, and throw stones around...never actually having to deal with the reality of the worlds that you criticize.

Do you also notice that I make acknowledgements where they are due? Do you ever wonder why I do so?

You do understand that that is but one form of stereotyping that is bad, yes? What also isn’t good is the stereotyping of entire groups of people. When you say as “the Jews” discriminate against “the Muslims,” so “the Muslims” will discriminate against “the Jews” you are stereotyping all Jews and all Muslims. If you didn’t mean to stereotype these groups of people you should be more precise in your language.

Yeah, you make acknowledgements and dissents based on your opinions. If you think they are based on some supposed knowledge of “how humanity works” you are severely self-deluded.

The reality is that Israel is the most glaring manifestation of Western imperialism and intervention by violating the rights of the Palestinian peoples in Palestine for the benefit of a European people escaping their problems in Europe.

Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Israel itself is becoming a liability to the very purpose it was established for.

No. Israel is learning that once a people have a territority, one acts just like other territories. In other words, Jews get to act like Gentile nations, and have lost the moral high ground as a minority underdog in a host nation.

People are just so surprised that it is Jews acting like Gentiles.

Be that as it may, it still leaves the problem of Israel's repression of the Palestinian peoples unaddressed, and merely ignores it in favor of some bigoted assertions of what surprises people.

InfraBlue wrote:

The reality is that Israel is the most glaring manifestation of Western imperialism and intervention by violating the rights of the Palestinian peoples in Palestine for the benefit of a European people escaping their problems in Europe.

You seem to be waxing nostalgic about 1948.

However, after the 1957 war, the Sephardic Jews living in Arab countries were sent to Israel. Israel overnight became 50% non-European Jewish. And, since the Sephardic Jews have a birthrate higher than the Ashkenazim (European Jews), the country is now a minority European Jews.

But, since many people think that all Jews are descended from the characters on Fiddler on the Roof, the canard that Israel is another European effort at colonial takeover will continue to exist.

Don't tell the Ethiopean Jews that they are European. They have great pride in their African heritage that never gave up their Judaism. Some people think they may be the original Jews. If that is the case, then the hostility towards Jews that wound up light complected is just a reversal of the usual racism.

Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm (don't that beat all).

InfraBlue wrote:

Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Israel itself is becoming a liability to the very purpose it was established for.

No. Israel is learning that once a people have a territority, one acts just like other territories. In other words, Jews get to act like Gentile nations, and have lost the moral high ground as a minority underdog in a host nation.

People are just so surprised that it is Jews acting like Gentiles.

Be that as it may, it still leaves the problem of Israel's repression of the Palestinian peoples unaddressed, and merely ignores it in favor of some bigoted assertions of what surprises people.

Perhaps, you are ignoring the Syrian conflict, where the regime is killing its own people. But, you focus on Jews; it might be more to many people's liking.

Ah, I see there is little point with discussion with you in most areas on this thread.

Just a couple of points left then.

Your again attempt to misrepresent. Some honesty would be valued - Generalisations have never meant ‘all’. Quite frankly – given the explanation on generalisation/stereotyping I gave afterwards, which explicitly outlines examples this – I can only think you are being contrary.

If I said ‘Australians are a happy go lucky people’ – It is implicit that I most certainly wouldn’t mean every single one (all) of them - just a decent majority of them). Your attempts to paint in a bad light anyone who disagrees with you descends into absurdity.

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Yeah, you make acknowledgements and dissents based on your opinions. If you think they are based on some supposed knowledge of “how humanity works” you are severely self-deluded.

Conflicts, discrimination, oppressions, and genocides caused by hatreds/prejudices in the past would actually indicate that what I said is very likely at the low end, and a possibility at the high end.

That was what started this all, isn't it ? As I previously mentioned - you have your head in it's idealistic sand.

I've been wondering why you put so much resistance into this particular area (as history shows it does happen)...and now I'm guessing that if you acknowledged this - it would complicate your view of how this should be solved...and that would shake your idealised world.