HOLOCAUST........ Fact or Fiction?

@Krumple,

By conflating Holocaust denial with Palestine you are proving the Zionists right when they say all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

If you did care about Palestine, which it's quite clear you don't, you'd keep your big mouth shut.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

It is clear you didn't even bother to read over what I had written.

It's clear YOU didn't read what you wrote here.
http://able2know.org/topic/195805-9#post-5077461

No where did you account for more than one building. Please feel free to point out your math if you did so.
You point out one building with 15 crematoria. Your math is as follows.

Quote:

It would then require 2.13 days to burn all 2000 bodies.
2.13 days. = 2000

This means 28k a month.
28,169 a month.

This means 338k a year.
338,028 a year

This means 1.6 million in 5 years.
1,690,140 in 5 years.

That is based on JUST the crematoria in ONE building in Auschwitz. You fail to include the other buildings with crematoria and you fail to include any other camps.
So clearly you did NOT explore anything to the highest extremes. You have just stated that ONE BUILDING could have killed 1.7 million but you have left out at least 7 other such buildings. Care to make your stupid claim again about how you did the numbers with all the buildings?

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

That is based on JUST the crematoria in ONE building in Auschwitz. You fail to include the other buildings with crematoria and you fail to include any other camps.
So clearly you did NOT explore anything to the highest extremes. You have just stated that ONE BUILDING could have killed 1.7 million but you have left out at least 7 other such buildings. Care to make your stupid claim again about how you did the numbers with all the buildings?

yeah and if you continued to actually read what was written you would see that I included that as a possibility.

The numbers still don't add up.

There weren't 7 such buildings. That is bullshit.

Not only that but I was being generous with the data. I said that the operation lasted 5 years. When in fact crematory 2 didn't actually go into use until march of 1943. Which actually only gives a 2 year span. I was being generous with the data using 5 years to tally up the numbers and they still would not work themselves out. If I were to use actual dates the numbers become even harder to justify.

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@Krumple,

Why don't you use the actual dates?
If you want to be REAL then use REAL numbers with REAL facts.

You also can't rely SOLELY on the numbers that could be cremated since you also admit that bodies were burned OUTSIDE the crematoria.

Clearly the number cremated is NOT the same as the number they could kill. Yet you want to confuse the issue and claim they are.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

The numbers still don't add up.

There weren't 7 such buildings. That is bullshit.

Really? How many buildings at Auschwitz alone?
How many other camps were extermination camps?
Wiki lists 7 camps that were extermination camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp

Do you still want to argue that there weren't at least 7 buildings used to kill Jews? We know Auschwitz had more than one and we know there were 7 camps. That tells me there were clearly more than 7 buildings.

Again, you just ignore facts and pretend that they don't exist.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Why don't you use the actual dates?
If you want to be REAL then use REAL numbers with REAL facts.

There is a scientific reason for using exaggerated numbers. If the most extreme case can be proven false then the "realistic" case has to be false as well. This is why I don't need to use the actual specific dates. If I can show over a five year time line that you can't get rid of that many bodies then in less time it would also have to be true.

parados wrote:

You also can't rely SOLELY on the numbers that could be cremated since you also admit that bodies were burned OUTSIDE the crematoria.

This is true. However the bodies still need to be handled. You can't gas more than you have room for and you can't burn more than you have room to burn. There weren't dozens of pits capable of burning tens of thousands of bodies at a time. Not only that but massive amounts of coal oil for fuel was needed to burn the bodies to make sure they continued to burn. They didn't have enough fuel to keep up this consistency.

parados wrote:

Clearly the number cremated is NOT the same as the number they could kill. Yet you want to confuse the issue and claim they are.

Here is the thing. Many of the claims suggest the construction of the "gas" chambers were planned they weren't planned very well. I mean if they were doing gassing prior to 1943 and wanted bigger and more efficient systems they still didn't design them very well. It brings up a red flag. I mean if their sole purpose was to destroy people they would have been designed in such a way to make the process easier.

From when the orders were supposedly given to start exterminating prisoners to the time the crematories were constructed was plenty of time to perfect the process yet they didn't. Why? Could it be because they weren't actually designed with extermination in mind?

There are pictures of outside burning pits but all the pictures that exist show people who are emaciated. Skinny. This means they have been malnourished for some time and not just right off the trains. None of the pictures show people who looked healthy who were gassed to death. You would think since they were so fond of taking photographs of these events they would have had at least one or two pictures showing pits filled with healthy looking people and not skinny emaciated. Why don't these photographs exist?

Speaking of photographs. If you were planning on murdering prisoners as they arrived at the camp, what's the point in taking their pictures? Individually lining them up and taking mug shots of each one? What is the point if you are just going to turn around and gas and burn them a few minutes later? Seems like a waste of time, resources and it doesn't do anything to calm their nerves if it was just a ploy. If it were just a ploy you wouldn't need camera film. All you would need is a fake camera and pretend to be taking pictures of them. Yet each one was photographed and cataloged like they do in prisons.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Really? How many buildings at Auschwitz alone?
How many other camps were extermination camps?
Wiki lists 7 camps that were extermination camps.

Do you still want to argue that there weren't at least 7 buildings used to kill Jews? We know Auschwitz had more than one and we know there were 7 camps. That tells me there were clearly more than 7 buildings.

Again, you just ignore facts and pretend that they don't exist.

The problem is Auschwitz is the focus where most books and writings claim that the most deaths occurred at. There weren't five function crematoriums running at Auschwitz.

Sure there were other camps but the documention on them is very limited. Some of the supposed death camps do not even have crematoriums. So if they were so fond of using them why don't these other camps that were considered to be extermination camps have them? I mean it is not easy to gas 2000 to 2500 people if you have no buildings to do it in.

Not only that but some of these camps that were considered to be extermination camps didn't even have jew prisoners. They were filled with POWs. These totals get incorporated even though they were not in fact jewish? Silly.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

There is a scientific reason for using exaggerated numbers. If the most extreme case can be proven false then the "realistic" case has to be false as well.

Except you did NOT use exaggerated numbers. You restricted it to a 1 crematoria at 1 camp out of several extermination camps and hundreds of other camps and then declared you couldn't reach a number that includes ALL deaths from all those other places. You hardly used a scientific exaggeration. You used a willful reduction to prove your bias.

Quote:

This is true. However the bodies still need to be handled. You can't gas more than you have room for and you can't burn more than you have room to burn

You assumed they could only be burned in the crematoria. Again a willful reduction to prove your bias.

Quote:

Not only that but massive amounts of coal oil for fuel was needed to burn the bodies to make sure they continued to burn. They didn't have enough fuel to keep up this consistency.

And your evidence of this is what?
What amount of oil is required to burn the bodies? Monks can self immolate with only a gallon of gas. What amount is required according to your calculations? What evidence do you have to support the amount you claim?

Quote:

Here is the thing. Many of the claims suggest the construction of the "gas" chambers were planned they weren't planned very well. I mean if they were doing gassing prior to 1943 and wanted bigger and more efficient systems they still didn't design them very well. It brings up a red flag. I mean if their sole purpose was to destroy people they would have been designed in such a way to make the process easier.

That is funny in a complete lack of logic kind of way. You just argued that they had limited resources so couldn't be efficient while doing it. Now you argue that they weren't efficient so that proves they weren't doing it. That would be complete nonsense on your part.

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@Krumple,

You continue to play the game that they only killed people that could be cremated. Why don't you argue that they only killed people in blue rooms?

You can't use the number of people that could be cremated as the limit for the number that could be killed.

The estimated numbers for Auschwitz is 1.1 million. Your numbers came out to 1.7 million. Do you agree that 1.7 million is MORE than 1.1? Do you agree that they could have killed 1.1 million in Auschwitz?

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Except you did NOT use exaggerated numbers. You restricted it to a 1 crematoria at 1 camp out of several extermination camps and hundreds of other camps and then declared you couldn't reach a number that includes ALL deaths from all those other places. You hardly used a scientific exaggeration. You used a willful reduction to prove your bias.

You are full of ****. I brought up that possibility. Not only did I mention this once before but I mentioned it previously and also in the lay out itself. You keep saying it as if I had not only goes to show you never even examined what was said.

It is completely pointless to carry this out because you keep rehashing the same argument and it has been pointed out to you that what you claim I have not done, I actually have.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

The estimated numbers for Auschwitz is 1.1 million. Your numbers came out to 1.7 million. Do you agree that 1.7 million is MORE than 1.1? Do you agree that they could have killed 1.1 million in Auschwitz?

If you would have actually read what was written you would seen that it was difficult to even arrive at 1.7 million. It would mean for 5 years straight non stop they would have to be gassing and burning or burying bodies 24/7. Had you actually read what was written you would have understood that. Which is why I don't even believe that 2 million total was possible in the small time frame.

They couldn't bury the bodies, it would have contaminated the water supply. The germans wouldn't have had a clean water supply to use if they buried the bodies. I covered this. They simply could not bury them. They had to be burned and even burning the bodies in pits was problematic. You can't dig five hundred holes and fill them with burning bodies. It is not practical nor did they have the space for it. The problem with burning pits is the amount of fuel that is required to keep or maintain burning. They wouldn't have used up that much precious fuel for such a task.

Not only that but you don't see any pictures of fat or healthy looking bodies in burning pits. They all are of emaciated and starved prisoners. Probably prisoners that died of some disease and to prevent the spread of the disease the quickest way to prevent spread was to burn the bodies.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

You are full of ****. I brought up that possibility. Not only did I mention this once before but I mentioned it previously and also in the lay out itself. You keep saying it as if I had not only goes to show you never even examined what was said.

1. Show me WHERE anyone has claimed 6 million Jews were killed in the extermination camps. The estimated number is about 3.0 million. You have created a strawman by using the 6 million figure. It allows you to compare your number to a number you manufactured so you can declare that the number can't be reached.

2.When you restricted your numbers to one crematoria at Auschwitz you made major errors of fact and then claimed you made exaggerations to help your numbers when in fact you were doing the opposite. You used only one building out of several. You used a made up that number you said couldn't be reached. you then made a conclusion that isn't even valid based on your own numbers.

3. The estimates are 1.1 million were killed in Auschwitz. 2.9 million in the 6 other camps. Your own number shows 1.7 could be killed in Auschwitz yet you declared that your number shows they couldn't have killed as many as were estimated. Your conclusions are contradicted by your own numbers.

1 Reply

@parados,

In reality the cremetorium throughput that Krumpkie quoted has been discredited, [artially as some of the crematoriums were coke fired muffle furnaces with a greater capacity than the gas fired furnaces Krumpkie listed. These furnaces were dismantled right before VE day, but their existance is known from the metals deposites left in the foundations of the furnaces. The metal residues came from the metal cyanides deposited in the bodies in the showers.

The best estimate for the three Auschwitz camps cremetoriums throughput is on the order of about 1.2 million total, 1.1 million jews, 0.1 million Romanians, Poles and Soviets).

Rap

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@parados,

parados wrote:

3. The estimates are 1.1 million were killed in Auschwitz. 2.9 million in the 6 other camps. Your own number shows 1.7 could be killed in Auschwitz yet you declared that your number shows they couldn't have killed as many as were estimated. Your conclusions are contradicted by your own numbers.

Once again you completely ignored the fact that to get the 1.7 million would require 24/7 operation. Do you understand what this means? It means day in and day out non stop they would have to be gassing and burning bodies for 5 years straight. I included the three functioning crematories at Auschwitz as a total for that number. But it still requires 24/7 operation to achieve the number which is unrealistic.

This is now the sixth time I have said this and you ignore it as if it were never mentioned. You are either trolling me or you don't care about facts.

Not only that but the number also would mean for each furnace it would require that six bodies were stuffed into each one. Which is also unrealistic. When professional cremators were asked about it after provided pictures of the furnaces they even claimed that you couldn't stack six bodies into a single furnace. They also mentioned that each additional body even if you could fit that many would increase the length of time required to completely destroy the body.

This does not even take into consideration the time it is required to clean them out of ashes. My times don't even include this fact. From the documents it would require up to 30 minutes to clean out a furnace. My times were solely on how many bodies could be burned in an idealistic situation discarding all the down time of moving, escorting, processing and moving bodies around which all takes time.

The fact that you ignore all these additional facts shows that you really don't care about the facts.

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I couldn't believe it when I saw this topic posted. No the Holocaust never happened. Nor did the Armenian genocide occur. And the Khmer Rouge never slaughtered anyone. Kosovo? That is just a place in the Balkans and genocide never occurred there. And, of course, we all know that the Neo-Cons were lying when they claimed that Sadam Hussein gassed his own people (Kurds)

And genocide itself? That is just a fake word created in 1948 by a man whose entire family was wiped out in what he mistakenly thought was "the Holocaust."

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

Once again you completely ignored the fact that to get the 1.7 million would require 24/7 operation. Do you understand what this means? It means day in and day out non stop they would have to be gassing and burning bodies for 5 years straight.

ROFLMAO..
Once again you conflate burning the bodies with a restriction on how many can be killed. There is no such restriction as you have admitted. Yet you continue to insist that deaths were restricted by the Crematoria.

Quote:

This is now the sixth time I have said this and you ignore it as if it were never mentioned. You are either trolling me or you don't care about facts.

The sixth time doesn't make it any more factual than the first time. Killings were NOT restricted by how quickly the few crematoria you have selected could cremate bodies. You continue to make an illogical argument and then accuse me of being a troll?

See rapraps post about the crematoria that were dismantled.

The simple fact is that you insist on ignoring facts Krumple. You then repeat your ignorance as if it has some weight when it doesn't. It is still just as ignorant each time you repeat it.

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@Harper,

You forgot to mention sarcasm doesn't exist.

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The very enormity of genocide nudges us toward incredulity, toward denial
and refusal.
Primo Levi, La Stampa, January 19, 1979
Everyone is free to interpret a phenomenon like the Hitlerian genocide according
to his philosophy. . . . Everyone is free, up to the limit, to imagine or
to dream that these monstrous facts did not take place. They unfortunately did
take place, and no one can deny their existence without outrage to the truth.
. . . It is impossible to have a debate on the existence of the gas chambers.
Statement signed by thirty-four French historians, Le Monde, February 21, 1979

I just read "A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide." In it, Samantha Power points out that the Nazis counted on the fact that many would refuse to believe that such horrors could really be perpetrated.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

ROFLMAO..
Once again you conflate burning the bodies with a restriction on how many can be killed. There is no such restriction as you have admitted. Yet you continue to insist that deaths were restricted by the Crematoria.

Of course there is restriction on how many can be gassed. I am directly addressing the gassing. Not shot by bullets, not killed by beatings, not killed by disease, not killed by some other means other than gassing. I am directly addressing the numbers that were claimed to have been gassed. This is now the seventh time I have stated this and you try to hide as if it has not been mentioned. Either that or your comprehension skills are lacking.

parados wrote:

Killings were NOT restricted by how quickly the few crematoria you have selected could cremate bodies. You continue to make an illogical argument and then accuse me of being a troll?

The gas chamber design is in question. An underground complex where bodies are crammed into a room where 2000 were claimed to be gassed at one time. In some cases it suggests that 2500 were crammed in but if you actually take the dimensions of the rooms they would not fit 2500 in them not even if they were stacked on top of the others.

You have to do something with those bodies. If you were to take them outside they would have to be carried through several rooms and carried up stairs out and towards the pits. This would mean incoming prisoners would witness these bodies being moved. It would alarm them to the situation of what is happening. So the claims go that they were secretly disposed of in the furnaces. Which means there is a limit to how many can be burned simultaneously.

That 1.7 million figure suggests that 6 bodies were crammed into each furnace which is highly unrealistic.

parados wrote:

See rapraps post about the crematoria that were dismantled.

Nonsense argument. He doesn't have any idea what he is talking about.

parados wrote:

The simple fact is that you insist on ignoring facts Krumple. You then repeat your ignorance as if it has some weight when it doesn't. It is still just as ignorant each time you repeat it.

The only person who can't understand the facts here is you after repeatedly mentioning them to you. You completely ignore how the numbers have been worked. They are exaggerated and still can not zero out. It means the credibility of the claims do not hold water.

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@Harper,

Harper wrote:

I just read "A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide." In it, Samantha Power points out that the Nazis counted on the fact that many would refuse to believe that such horrors could really be perpetrated.

Kind of a funny quote when a huge majority actually believe that it did occur. Not very accurate when pretty much everyone agrees it did happen. So where does that stand? Meaningless. Just another method to keep people from fact checking.

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HOLOCAUST........ Fact or Fiction?

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