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Mayor Bloomberg proposes super-sized soda ban

 
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 07:09 pm
In doing the research for this thread I found that some people are now questioning the studies that claims all kind of wonderful benefits of breastfeeding over formula.

Funny if all this pressure on women to breastfeed is not all that important to the health and future health of infants and are base on mainly on junk science would it not?

I never even had a clue before that this superiority of breast milk raised babies are not a given!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/may/25/breastfeeding-backlash-zoe-williams


year later, a conference on infant feeding included the American academic Joan B Wolf, who conducts a rigorous, close-range examination of the science behind pro-breastfeeding advice in Is Breast Best? She concludes that the case for breast milk is hyperbolic. "The majority of studies have demonstrated that there's a relationship between breastfeeding and better health. But whether this relationship is causal has never been established." The only discernible benefit was in reducing instances of gastroenteritis, thanks to a specific agent found only in human milk, secretory immunoglobulin A (or SIgA). Again, there was the threat of a demonstration against her, this time outside the British Library, which would have been a bit embarrassing (you can't demonstrate against someone collating study results. What are you going to put on your placard? Down with Meta-Studies?). But again, it didn't happen.

This struck me as a bizarre place to have arrived at; where even to talk about the evidence behind the benefits of one type of infant feeding over another is heretical. The questioning of the orthodoxy is taken as a direct attack on babies. And who would attack a baby? Only a vile lunatic; so the temperature of the debate is often quite high from the start. Charlotte Faircloth, a sociologist who did her PhD on "full-term" breastfeeding in London and Paris (I think of her as the George Orwell of lactation), comments mildly: "I think, weirdly, not being a mum was really a useful thing for me while I was doing my research, because I wasn't a them or an us. It allowed me to ask some basic questions that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. Everything has got very heated, and very moralised. How you feed your kids is no longer a personal decision. There's this idea that you can breastfeed your way out of poverty, or if you don't breastfeed your kid's going to be fat or have a low IQ…" She pauses. "It's all got a bit out of hand."

In some ways, with the distance afforded by now having two fully weaned children, I understand it: the act of breastfeeding – that is, sitting in Starbucks half-naked – is taken to be such a transgression of social norms that in order to make women feel OK about it, there has to be a degree of overstatement as to how beneficial it all is.

But there are some women daring to challenge the idea that breast is best. Repudiating "attachment" parenting, French feminist Elisabeth Badinter argues that breastfeeding – along with natural labour, co-sleeping and giving up work – all amount to an ideal of motherhood that effectively subjugates a woman's professional, sexual, spousal, adult identity. "If 24 hours a day the woman is reduced to her role as a nursing animal, even putting the child in the bed between the father and the mother, the father is completely put aside," she said recently, "This is very hard for men, and I think the child becomes a factor in the separation of the couple. Breastfeeding a few weeks, sometimes a few months, OK. But when it's recommended that you breastfeed your child for one year – six months exclusively, with nothing else, day and night, on demand – there are obviously consequences for a couple."

Badinter's beef with the idea of "total motherhood" has caused more of a furore in the US than it did in France, where her main opponents were Greens (she laid some of the blame for this essentialist maternal model at the door of "ecologists" with their non-disposable nappies). In the US, where arguably women have been in thrall to this idea of perfect motherhood (or "Borg-parenting", as the New York Times put it) for longer, the idea that motherhood and feminism might be at odds has been greeted in some predictable and some comically unexpected ways.

A number of commentators have said that, in fact, the right to breastfeed was a victory for feminism, in wresting the care of their babies from a professional, medicalised elite. Others have conceded that the struggle for perfection and unanimity in any direction – towards breastfeeding or away from it – is necessarily bad for women, removing their personal agency. (Which Bandinter doesn't argue with: "Let women do what they want!" she says. "There are women for whom breastfeeding is a true pleasure. It's very good for them and it's very good for the baby. But to breastfeed a baby if the mother herself doesn't like it? It's a catastrophe. The decision to breastfeed is an intimate and private decision. No one should be able to interfere.")

But there are certainly those, for instance LaShaun Williams, who argue that Badinter is right – motherhood is at odds with feminism, and this is a good thing, since when we finally accept the primacy of the maternal role, it shows up feminism for the sham it is. "We should question," she writes, "why so many of us are working – single and married women alike. Is it because we bought the feminist lie that we don't need a husband? Is it because we want to prove to the world that we are worth something? Or is it to live in a ritzy neighbourhood and drive an Audi Q7? When we bring children into this world we also agree to sacrifice parts of ourselves." In this version of events, just by wanting financial agency, women have succumbed to avarice, and a feminist lie – which makes Badinter's point for her, that the "essential mother" shtick is a way to crowbar women out of the marketplace. "Career-driven mothers" should be reminded, says Williams, "that family comes first."

But of course, feminist theorising on its own would be no match for the superiority of breastfeeding, if it were all it was cracked up to be. In government literature, both here and in the US, the benefits of breastfeeding are expressed uncritically, and to the farthest reaches of what's physically possible. The NHS Start4Life advice says that breastfeeding will give babies a smaller chance of, "developing eczema; getting ear, chest and tummy bugs and have [sic] to go to hospital as a result; being fussy about new foods; being constipated; being obese and developing diabetes when they are older. There are advantages for mums who breastfeed too: breastfeeding lowers the risk of breast and ovarian cancer; breastfeeding naturally uses up about 500 extra calories a day so mums who breastfeed often find it easier to lose their pregnancy weight."

Now, only one of those claims is without dispute, as Wolf concluded, the one about "tummy bugs". The research about ear infections, respiratory disease and diabetes is very mixed. Neither fussiness around new foods nor constipation are classic or very salient markers of good health. The obesity studies are debatable. The weight loss of breastfeeding mothers is taken from a WHO report, based on two interventionist studies in Honduras. It's nothing like that straightforward: it does use 500 calories a day, but if your appetite increases at the same time, it is amazing how quickly and easily you can pop 500 calories into your mouth. Meanwhile, Wolf points out, no study on maternal cancer has "distinguished the effects of breastfeeding from the behaviour of women who breastfeed". And that's the rub, as she writes: "Breastfeeding cannot be distinguished from the decision to breastfeed, which could represent a more comprehensive commitment to healthy living." It's a self-selecting sample, a phrase that is a foreign language in the world of early-years intervention.

The interesting thing is, as Wolf told me, these problems aren't in dispute: "The American Academy of Paediatrics released a statement on breastfeeding, with a point in the policy document where they say, 'There are a lot of methodological problems'. And then they continue as if those problems didn't exist. It's like saying something with your fingers behind your back – you can carry on with your business as though those problems weren't there."

Wolf also quotes Diane Eyer, a psychologist and academic, in this observation that has consequences right across the early years debate: "The notion of risk [has been] transformed from a dichotomy to a continuum." It's no longer a case of "safe" versus "dangerous"; rather, everything carries some risk and you announce your fitness as a parent to the world by interpreting hazards in the most credulous, fervent way. The onus isn't on the researcher to prove the point any more – the onus is on the parent, or parent-to-be, to prove that they'll believe the researcher. This leads to some utterly bogus propositions being taken as fact (don't get me started on stress in pregnancy).

At the same time, at the level of policy, there is a zealous belief in the importance of the first three years in fashioning good citizens, which you can see in everything from David Cameron's parenting classes to Frank Field's idea for a school in which the pupils are enrolled in utero (I'm not kidding). The assumption tends to be that the kind of people who breastfeed anyway and eat organic have no need of advice, while the people to whom advice is dispensed are essentially counselled to act more like the middle classes. And it makes sense on its own terms, since if you've decided that social mobility will be achieved by intervening at the parental level with the under-threes, you have basically decided this: if only everybody would parent (there's really no other verb for it) the way the richest parent, then everybody would have the same chances as currently only the richest enjoy. One precept this relies on is an amplified belief in the risks of certain types of parenting over other types; the minute you accept the idea of different but equal – formula feeding, say, as different from breastfeeding, but fine all the same – you abnegate your right as a government to stick your oar in.

Leaving social policy and returning to the world, it is interesting to note that the standard advice is to breastfeed exclusively ("don't rush to mush!") for six months, and yet only half of mothers in the UK who start breastfeeding (an impressive 91%) continue past six weeks. So there's this very trenchant public health message that the majority of people aren't taking any notice of – in that regard, it's a bit like the five-a-day message in adult nutrition (ie, we mainly ignore it), and yet it's unlike the proscription of drink-driving, which has pretty good social penetration. The message I take from that is that we tend to supplement government advice with the evidence of our own five senses, and only when the two are in accord do we take it all that seriously.

I didn't set out to write a controversial book about pregnancy. (Within the sappy remit of thinking your kids are the best thing that ever happened to the world, how controversial is it going to get, realistically?) And yet there are wells and eddies of the baby world that reflect things about class and gender and authority and control that are not entirely babyish.

• What Not To Expect When You're Expecting, by Zoe Williams, is published in paperback by Guardian Books on 7 June at £7.99. To order a copy for £5.99, including UK mainland p&p, go to guardianbookshop.co.uk or call 0330 333 6846.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 07:13 pm
@BillRM,
You guys know that you can start a brand spanking new bloody thread on the insanity that is to breast feed or not to breast feed instead of trashing this one right?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 07:14 pm
@BillRM,
My sense is that breast-feeding is superior to the use of formula, but that isn't at all the point.

If women shouldn't have an unfettered choice to use formula, why should they have an unfettered choice to emply abortion?
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 07:21 pm
@tsarstepan,
Quote:
You guys know that you can start a brand spanking new bloody thread on the insanity that is to breast feed or not to breast feed instead of trashing this one right?


Sorry it all relate to the mayor of New York using government power to force what he consider healthy behaviors on the citizens whether they desire it or not.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 07:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
My sense is that breast-feeding is superior to the use of formula, but that isn't at all the point.


I agree that there is likely some benefits to breastfeeding but also that it is likely to be greatly overstated.

Quote:
If women shouldn't have an unfettered choice to use formula, why should they have an unfettered choice to emply abortion?


To me it go beyond that to the idea that the government know best and adults should be pressure or even force to follow the current thinking of government of what is best for them with special note of the lower classes that people like Firefly have contempt for.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 07:48 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Oh by the way Firefly you do seems to be trying once more to have it both ways once more in claiming that the New York City Government is not doing what it is clearly doing IE pressuring women to breastfeed and on the other hand stating that you need to pressure the lower class that are found in those hospitals as they can not be depended on to know what is best for them and their children.

NYC is promoting and supporting breast-feeding, but there is no evidence of any pressuring going on, either pressuring of nurses or pressuring of mothers. You're just making that up. You have no evidence to support it. In fact, this program has been in effect since only September 3, and you don't know how it's going, but you're not hearing complaints from women who have been hospitalized in the past 3 weeks, or from nurses who work in the maternity units.

Having the mother request the infant formula, which will always be given to her, is not pressuring her, and she'll get the same educational spiel about breast-feeding vs bottle-feeding the hospitals have already been giving for years. And they're reducing any pressure or encouragement to formula feed, for those who want to breast-feed, by not having ubquitous promotional bottles of baby formula all over the unit--they have them in one secure place, and under a nurse's supervision, so only the nurses can track distribution--and, since they're trying to promote and support breast-feeding, that makes sense.

I never said there is a need to pressure the lower classes. I don't think there is a need to pressure anyone, not the nurses and not the new mothers while they are in the hospital. You have very serious problems comprehending what you read.

And that article you posted on a breast-feeding police is irrelevant to the issue of this Latch On NYC initiative. That a mother who chooses to bottle-feed may find herself being criticized or bothered by all sorts of people for her choice to use formula is unrelated to the issue of this particular health initiative--this NYC initiative is to support those who wish to breast-feed, not to badger those who don't, and the City has made that clear.

A new mother is in a NYC hospital for only about 48 hours after she gives birth, and during that time they are trying to promote and support breast-feeding, which is already the choice of most women while they are in the hospital, while not at all interfering with the choice of a mother who wants to bottle-feed. And you have yet to show that anything other than that is going on in the NYC hospitals.

Your baseless rant about the big bad government taking away anyone's choice, or treating people like children, is totally unsupported in this instance, it's illogical, out of sync with the facts of this particular program, and just a display of your usual hysteria.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 08:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What is the purpose of this law if not to expand the practice of breast-feeding?

It's not a law of any sort. Since you don't have your most basic facts straight, I don't expect you to understand this program at all.
Quote:

Women feel enough internalized pressure to breast-feed without having to endure a lecture from a Nurse who doesn't want to give her formula for no other reason that it means paperwork demands in an already hectic shift.

Did you read the Myths & Facts about this program I posted? Apparently not. That educational pitch about breast-feeding vs bottle feeding has been given to all new mothers in New York State, not just in New York City, for the past several years--that is neither new nor unique to this initiative.

The nurses are not unwilling to give the formula, that simple paperwork is part of their job, and their work isn't all that hectic--taking care of their patient's needs and requests is their job.
Quote:
Women feel enough internalized pressure to breast-feed ...

Really? How do you know that? Most of them say they want to breast-feed, which is quite different.
Quote:

The fact that experts consider breast-feeding superior to the use of formula is meaningless, in terms of the mother exercising her choice...

But most women are influenced by expert medical advice in making choices and decisions about their own health care and that of their children--and the evidence in support of the beneficial effects of breast-feeding, for both mother and child, is quite substantial. Most women already choose breast-feeding as their preference while in the hospital.

If you don't rely on expert medical opinions for your own health decisions, who, or what, do you rely on? Astrologers? A coin toss?
Quote:
If the hospital makes it more difficult to exercise a choice that is already difficult, it is coercion....

You don't understand this program.

It doesn't make it more difficult for the mother who wants to bottle feed--she just requests the formula and they get it for her. The program is actually designed to support the mother who already wants to breast-feed, by not having ubiquitous promotional bottles of formula all over the unit, which can serve to undermine her desire, and intention, to breast-feed. You don't understand the aim of the program at all--try reading it.

No one's choice is interfered with or limited. Not for the 48 hours the mothers are in the hospital, or afterward, when they are home from the hospital.They are free to breast-feed, bottle-feed, or to use a combination of breast-feeding and supplemental feeding. It's the new mother who makes her own choices.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:23 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry it all relate to the mayor of New York using government power to force what he consider healthy behaviors on the citizens whether they desire it or not.

No, he's not forcing healthy behaviors on anyone. That's a bogus argument.

People are still free to guzzle as much soda as they want, feed their infant in the manner they want, make the least healthy choices in the hospital vending machines and cafeterias, etc.

I think Bloomberg is using his influence to try to address the very real public health problem of obesity in the City by promoting healthier eating, and better access to healthier food, particularly in less advantaged neighborhoods, by promoting healthier eating and snacking in the City hospitals and schools, by trying to curb the push by vendors to get consumers to order larger and larger super-sized sugary drinks, to purchase mainly candy bars and high-fat snacks from vending machines, etc. And the public does support his efforts--it was the food and beverage association that took out that full page ad calling him an overly controlling Nanny about the super-sized soda ban--the public generally supports him, and what he's trying to do. During the interval for public comments about the soda proposal, something like 88% of the over 32,000 comments received supported the proposal--and some of those who opposed it did so because it didn't go far enough, or they thought it wouldn't make enough of a dent in the obesity problem.

Why are you criticizing a public official who actually does appear to give a damn about the health of the people he serves, and who is trying to address the public health, and economic problems, that stem from the fact that 60% of those people are obese? And why criticize a Health Department that is also genuinely concerned about that same obesity-related public health problem? Aren't these things--that affect both public health and cost factors--within the legitimate province of government?

It's not just that people aren't making the best health choices in what they eat and drink, they're also being bombarded with less healthy options, and over-sized portions, by a food and drink industry that has no interest in public health, and no real incentive to change their marketing strategy or tactics, or to offer some healthier options, without some pressure applied by the government. Bloomberg's super-sized soda ban isn't really aimed at the consumers, to limit their choices, it's aimed at the vendors, like the fast-food chains, that have systematically increased portion size and manipulated consumers perceptions of reasonable amounts, to get them to want, and expect, and buy, more. All the City of New York has done with the super-sized soda ban is to say, "Whoa! Enough is enough!" and try to get serving sizes back down to something reasonable. The choice of how much to drink, and what to drink, still rests with the consumer.

Bloomberg's trans-fat ban was a positive improvement in the healthfulness of food, and that wasn't something consumers could have accomplished on their own, nor could they have gotten calorie counts posted in fast-food restaurants on their own. And the smoking bans benefit everyone's health.
And what Bloomberg accomplished in New York City, in that regard, has been copied elsewhere in the country, both because the initiatives have worked and because the public has accepted and supported them.

I really think Bloomberg should be commended for his efforts to try to improve public health, and his attempts to address the very real obesity-related public health problem that exists in NYC. And he's made healthier food and drink options more available and accessible in City hospitals, and schools, and the less advantaged neighborhoods--which expands the range of choices for the public, and in a positive direction.

I don't see the breast-feeding program, Latch On NYC, as really related to any of this. You introduced it into this thread and I don't see it as connected to any sort of health problem. It's a program designed to support mothers who wish to breast-feed while in the hospital, and minimize the influences that might deter them from that choice. It's not about taking choice away from the woman who wants to bottle feed. More importantly, it's not in any way connected to the super-sized soda ban, which is the topic of this thread.

The government uses it's power to influence public health all the time--they require children to be vaccinated against certain diseases in order to be able to attend school. Do you disagree with that too?

Acting to protect the general welfare is a legitimate power, and obligation, of government.

aidan
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 01:20 am
@firefly,
I couldn't have said it better or agree more strongly Firefly.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 03:33 am
This seems like a new and bold power grab on the part of the state...does anyone recall the government before now claiming the right to dictate by law portion sizes? If they can get away with this then for sure all portion sizes will be decided by the state with in 10 years.

I pretty much feel here as I do about cigs...the government has the power to ban unsafe products but should not have the power to control the market place on products it has signed off on. It can lobby in favor of responsible use and it can outlaw on presentation of proof of safety problems, them are the two choices. Anything else is further abuse of the citizens at the hands of the state.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 04:14 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye to me it is an amazing idea that at the city government level of all places women can be pressure into breastfeeding and the public can have their free choice of drink size interfere with all for their own good.

Now smoking bans in indoor public places made a little more sense as the smokers could be doing harm and annoying at the very least non-smokers. Those bans make a little less sense when you are talking about outdoors areas.

But that logic does not fly at all when you are talking about what size soda container a person can order or whether a woman is free to breastfeed or not to breastfeed her own children in a hospital. .

All this driven by an open contempt for the poor stupid people who but for the government would be harming themselves and their children,
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 05:44 am
@hawkeye10,
Another comment is that I just love how dishonest Firefly can be to the point she is insulting the intellect of all the readers of her posts.

Hawkeye it is not fun trying to debate such a dishonest person is it not!!!!!!!

A ban on selling the large size of soda containers is not a real ban and if it is a ban it does not matter in any case as people can order a few smaller sides sodas to made up for it.Hell maybe the city will hire people to carry all those smaller size drinks for those who wish more soda then the government feel is good for them.

Then pressure on women who have just deliver to breastfeed their children is not pressure and all the locking up of formula and having nurses needing to fill out paperwork stating a medical need for the use of formula is not going to cause pressure on women to breastfeed. An with the fall back position is that after all most of these women are lower class and poorly educated so the government is justify in pressuring them.

The good point is the city will be promoting the home birth industry big time by such actions and or causing the hospitals that are outside the borders of New York City to have more patients.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 12:11 pm
Quote:
New York Soda Cap Sucks First Small Drop From Supersized Beverage Bucket
Rob Waters
9/18/2012

New York City’s soda cap, passed last week, is the first significant strike against the beverage industry’s endless quest for “share of stomach,” as Coca-Cola executives used to call it. Limiting to 16 ounces the size of sodas and other sugar-laced drinks sold in restaurants, movie theaters and food carts is a sensible and mild restriction. Will it help reduce the number of empty calories New York residents consume? Time will tell. But the fuss and drama over the measure would be funny if it weren’t so painfully familiar.

In this space, I’ll keep examining these kinds of issues, and now with a new perspective as chief communications officer for the Prevention Institute, an Oakland, California-based nonprofit that works to keep people and their communities healthy by preventing illness, disease and injury before it happens.

The soda industry and its allies are whipping up froth and outrage that American freedoms and rights are under attack. The Washington Legal Foundation—defender of liberty, tobacco companies and the right of pharmaceutical companies to market drugs for unapproved purposes—warned in a letter to New York’s health board about the slippery slope Americans face as their rights to sugar and calories are eroded. Soon, the Foundation warned, “an array of products will be taken from the shelves…(and) consumers’ dietary choices will be heavily reduced.” Keeping movie theaters and restaurants from selling super-sized sodas, the Foundation cried, will rob people of “life’s simple pleasures” and “take away from the joy of life.”

Please. Are we really infringing on people’s liberties by keeping them from buying, in a single container, super-sized quantities of high-fat, unhealthy drinks? If they really want to drink that much, customers can simply buy two or three. Or go to 7-Eleven, or any supermarket, which are exempt from the regulation. All this rule does it make it a little less easy, a bit less convenient, to overconsume.

The beverage industry and its well-funded advocates and allies argue that public health authorities should rely on educating people, not coercing them. The truth is it takes a combination of approaches to make important changes that protect people’s health.

We don’t just rely on highway billboards to encourage people to wear seatbelts. We required auto companies to install them and cops issue tickets when people fail to wear them. America’s cigarette consumption declined drastically over the past two decades through a combination of steps: city ordinances that banned smoking in cafes and restaurants, increased taxes on tobacco products and powerful, pull-no-punches media campaigns that showed the true dangers of smoking.

These measures helped millions of Americans to survive automobile crashes and to put down their cigarettes or avoid picking them up in the first place. They too were opposed by the industries they affected. Auto companies fought seat-belt and air-bag laws, delaying their imposition. Tobacco companies and their allies like the Washington Legal Foundation battled tooth and nail against every effort to control cigarette sales and marketing.

Policies that attempt to constrain consumer demand or change behavior only make sense when there are compelling reasons to act from the standpoint of public health. Cigarettes cause cancer, heart disease and death and when those facts became clear, governments enacted restrictions.

Today, New York City, like the rest of the nation, is in the grips of an epidemic of ill health. At a population level, rates of obesity and diabetes have exploded. Americans today consume about 278 more calories a day than they did in the mid-1970s and more than 40 percent of those calories come from sugary drinks, according to recent studies.

Reversing these trends will require more than downsizing sodas. Taxing sugary drinks (and other high-sugar, high-fat junk food), then using the funds to pay for bicycle paths, jogging trails and parks where kids can play might also need to be part of the policy picture. So might powerful media campaigns, like the anti-tobacco commercials in California, to discourage people from consuming junk food. Making sure that people in poor neighborhoods have markets where they can buy fresh, healthy food is also critical.

So let’s get on with it, and stop crying over slimmed soda.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robwaters/2012/09/18/new-york-soda-cap-sucks-first-small-drop-from-supersized-beverage-bucket/print/
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 12:54 pm
@firefly,
The ends justify the means...where have we heard that before?

The right thing to do is to give up more of your freedom which was hard won by your ancestors back to the state....where have we heard that before??

The "reasons" for doing wrong by ourselves and our kids will never stop flowing from the appologists for the police state.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 01:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Has anyone mentioned that according to polls the majority of citizens of the city are against this action from their government?

This is abuse of power.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 02:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The right thing to do is to give up more of your freedom which was hard won by your ancestors back to the state

Whose "freedom" are you talking about being given up? The soda industry?

Consumers already have no "freedom" in determining portion size, that's done by the beverage industry. What they can control is their demand for the product, and soda consumption has been on the decline for the past several years. If, as a result of the super-sized ban, consumers don't start buying multiple portions, to compensate for the lesser amounts, that will also send a message to the beverage industry regarding what the public actually wants.

The ban is only aimed at vendors--they will be the ones fined for violations. Consumers are still free to buy, and drink, whatever they want, in whatever quantities they want. So, big-time soda guzzlers might have to purchase two 16 oz drinks instead of one 32 oz, but that's not a restriction on anyone's freedom or liberty, it's at most a minor inconvenience.

Stop with the over-the-top "police state" hyperbole. It clearly is a gross exaggeration in this case. When consumers are at the mercy of unregulated industries, it's often hard to justify why they might not need the protection of some government regulations. In hindsight, more government regulation and oversight probably would have helped to avert the collapse of our economy. When an industry is motivated by greed, with no concern for the negative public impact of their product, it is time for government to try to establish curbs--and that's what this super-sized soda ban is trying to do.

Since you are now a new restaurant owner I'm a little surprised you'd even want to see a complete "hands-off" policy by the government in terms of public health. Do you really want the FDA to turn a blind eye to the health hazards in the food you purchase to feed your customers? Should your customers merely trust that your charming personality will insure that you prepare food under sanitary conditions, store it under proper temperatures, and just hope that what you serve them isn't spiced with a sprinkling of rodent droppings?

Come on, Hawkeye, get real. There is a need for the government to keep an eye on public health, you can't always put blind trust in the private sector to do what's in the public interest because that may be at odds with their profit motive. If we waited for the tobacco industry to tell consumers about the dangers of smoking, we'd still be waiting.

The obesity epidemic is all too real, particularly in a place like New York City, where 60% of the population is obese, and that's a significant public health problem. A government, and a health department, that would ignore a public health problem like that would be derelict. But, we're so used to governments doing not much more than hand-wringing about our obesity rates, that it suddenly seems someone like Bloomberg is being audacious when he steps up to the plate to try to use the powers of government to address the problem. The issue is less whether Bloomberg's over-stepping his bounds and more that why aren't there more mayors similarly concerned about public health--particularly the problem of obesity?



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 02:48 pm
@firefly,
I have never had the problem of trying to buy soda but being forced to get more than I want or pay for more than I want because all of the cups are to big. And besides, even a socialist like me knows that at the retail level the consumer already drives the choices...the assertion that the cola company or the retailer does is a lie. I don't need the governments help here, and the government should mind its own ******* business unless it is called on for help by the citizens, which never happened in this case.

The cola portion laws from the state is more of the ever increasing abuse of the citzens at the hands of the state.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 02:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Has anyone mentioned that according to polls the majority of citizens of the city are against this action from their government?

That's not true.

You are aware, aren't you, that the beverage industry has formed several phony consumer groups, under various names, masquerading as "grassroots" opposition to the ban, and has these groups trumping up the "government is restricting our freedom" chant on the streets of NYC, and on the internet. That's not the main objection coming from the public, because most people are smart enough to realize they can still purchase, and consume, as much as they want.

Of the 38, 000 comments received about the proposed super-sized soda ban, during the public hearings and a period allowing for public comments, 84% of the comments received supported the proposal, 16% opposed it. And, some of those opposing it did so because it didn't go far enough or because it contained too many loopholes to make it effective.

You are also talking about a mayor who has been returned to office 3 times, by a public well aware of his efforts to improve public health. And, despite some initial grousing about each of his earlier efforts in that regard, the public accepted them.
Quote:
This is abuse of power.

No, that remains to be determined in a court, if the beverage industry takes the City to court, as they have threatened to do.

But the tobacco industry also tried to take on Bloomberg, and they lost.

So, until legally determined otherwise, this is simply a legitimate use of government power, in this case the power of a health department, to try to address a serious public health problem of obesity, that already affects 3 million obese New York City residents, and that shows no signs of abating.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 04:38 pm
@firefly,
Just because an industry organization/trade group is fighting this silliness does not mean that they are wrong or that the public as a whole is not in fact unhappy with this ban and government interferes in their personal lives and the government assuming the role of parents to adult citizens.

In fact a New York Time poll found that 60 percents of the citizens of New York City do not approve of this ban.

How come you are supporting a ban by an non-elected body against the majority of the citizens wishes Firefly??????

Oh I forgot in big and small matters you like the idea of a police state that control the citizens for their own goods..

Quote:
So, until legally determined otherwise, this is simply a legitimate use of government power, i


Only in a police and nanny state is this a legitimate use of government power.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 04:50 pm
@BillRM,
A recent Quinipiac poll had it 51% against the city among city citizens...with 39% saying that it would work towards the stated goal.
 

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