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Mayor Bloomberg proposes super-sized soda ban

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 05:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye having a non-elected board with this degree of power to interfere with the citizens personal lives in big and small matters should not exist.

If I was a New Yorker I would be campaigning for doing away with this board or at least taking it power away to enacted regulations with out the approval of elected officers.

You know this is the city who at the start of the civil war was threatening to declare itself a neutral city in the heart of the north and when they try to have a draft right after Gettysberg the largest and most costly riot in the history of the country to this day occur and the city then came up with the funds to buy the Federal government off as far as the draft was concern in regard to it citizens.

Now the citizens of NY are rolling over for a non-elected board treating them as children how times had change.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 05:18 pm
@BillRM,
Democracy as well as liberty are always run through the knife these days when ever "SAFETY!" is envoked...

The American people are STUPID.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 05:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The American people are STUPID


Sadly I think concerning the above opinion all three of us can agree you, me and Firefly

The only different between us is that Firefly would like to use that stupidty as an excuse to allow the government to rule all our personal lives in such small details as the size of the sodas containers we can buy.

Of course Firefly view herself as one of the rule makers and she might for that matter be on the damn health board of NY city as unlike all the rest of us she is not sharing any details of her life or background.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 05:35 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
In fact a New York Time poll found that 60 percents of the citizens of New York City do not approve of this ban.

Do you have a link to support that? You've posted so much factually untrue information, I regard nothing you say as credible unless you can corroborate it.
Quote:
How come you are supporting a ban by an non-elected body against the majority of the citizens wishes Firefly??????

You are aware that the mayor is elected aren't you? In fact, he's on his third term--that's how much the public opposes his efforts to improve public health. He appoints the Health Commissioner. The soda size restriction is an attempt to address the public health problem of obesity--and it will be enforced by the health department, and effects only those vendors and businesses already under the regulation of the health department.

And you seem unaware that there were public hearings, and a period available for the public to submit comments, prior to passage of this regulation. There was over-whelming support for the proposal--meaning this was not passed against the wishes of citizens. I already posted this--in fact, earlier in this thread I posted a link to the summary of those 38,000 comments.
Quote:
Of the 38, 000 comments received about the proposed super-sized soda ban, during the public hearings and a period allowing for public comments, 84% of the comments received supported the proposal, 16% opposed it. And, some of those opposing it did so because it didn't go far enough or because it contained too many loopholes to make it effective.

Quote:
Only in a police and nanny state is this a legitimate use of government power.

Right, you're living in a "police state" because you might have to buy two 16 oz sodas, if you can't have get a 32 oz soda. Laughing Can you get any more absurd? Laughing

And making sure you can get a 32 oz, or 48 oz, or 54 oz soda, is much more important than trying to control an obesity problem that currently affects 3 million people in New York City. Laughing Even though you can still go into any 7-eleven in New York City and get a super-sized soda there. Laughing

What is the function of a municipal health department, if it isn't to protect the lives and health of the public it serves, and to control practices which have a deleterious effect on public health?

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 06:08 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Do you have a link to support that? You've posted so much factually untrue information, I regard nothing you say as credible unless you can corroborate it.


**** YOU...........

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/22/nyregion/22nyc-poll.html

Page 8............
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 06:15 pm
@firefly,
As I had said and proven 60 percents of the citizens do not wish for this ban by the New York Time poll and while a lame duck mayor was the driving force it was still a non-elected board that put this down the people throat.

Leaving no one to be voted out of office for this silliness.

Such a non elected board should not be able to placed regulations into effect for that reason.

Either it should be just an advisory panel or it should be an elected body.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 06:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye maybe we need a saying that is similar to the one of the colonies before the revolution 'no taxation without representation'.

How about No government regulation by non-elected boards?

Can you see the hundreds of thousands of regulations at the Federal level that most people do not even know exist until they are charge with breaking one becoming null and void!!!!!!!
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 07:24 pm
Some of the people who do need to face the people concerning their government actions stood against the ban at Board of Health hearing and suggested if there should be a ban or not it should be decided by the elected officers of the city not this board,

http://adage.com/article/news/nyc-beverage-ban-debated-marathon-public-hearing/236284/

Elected officials including Brooklyn Borough President Marty Markowitz, City Councilmember Dan Halloran and City Councilmember Letitia James oppose the ban and called on the Board of Health to focus its energies elsewhere. The officials asked that the Board of Health instead focus on ensuring playgrounds and school gyms are up to date, and that gym is part of the curriculum in all New York City schools. Mr. Markowitz laid out a plan that would include community exercise groups as well subsidies for low and moderate income New Yorkers who would like to join gyms and other health clubs.

Various elected officials also told stories about the local business owners that would be negatively affected in their districts should the ban be enacted. Local bodegas would lose out on sales, they reasoned, as consumers begin frequenting drug stores or convenience stores still allowed to sell large, sugary drinks.

At fast-food and fast-casual restaurants, carbonated soft drinks account for about 10% of sales in the U.S., according to restaurant market-research firm Technomic. That's a sizable portion of top-line sales, but factor in the profitability of soft drinks for the chains -- a 90%-plus profit margin -- and the potential wallop to the bottom line becomes clear, particularly for franchisees.

Officials at the hearing also urged the Board of Health to allow the proposed ban to be handled legislatively and to give New Yorkers a more-convenient forum to speak out. The public hearing was held in Long Island City, beginning at 1 p.m. -- not exactly accessible for the average working New Yorker, Ms. James pointed out.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 08:07 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Hawkeye maybe we need a saying that is similar to the one of the colonies before the revolution 'no taxation without representation'.

you might be familiar with my occasional rants on a2k on the subject of the perils of outsourcing government duties......
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 08:45 pm
@BillRM,
For someone who constantly points out how elected government officials are in the pocket of special interest groups, you are suddenly very naive to the fact that the elected officials at that meeting might be influenced by money thrown at them, and their campaign funds, by the beverage industry.

The one thing you don't have to worry about with Bloomberg is that he's in anybody's pocket--his wealth allows him to be truly independent.

You certainly selectively edited that excerpt you posted--to leave out those who supported the ban. Not that you're being deceptive....or that you have a pattern of denying or omitting anything contrary to your point of view.

Let's see what you left out...,
Quote:

Early on, a number of elected officials made passionate cases for why they opposed the ban. But as the hearing progressed, a number of university professors and public-health officials came out in support of the ban. More than 30 had spoken by the three-hour mark, with over half in support of the ban...

A number of educators and health professionals, including registered dieticians and doctors, spoke out in support of the ban, citing rising obesity rates.

"We believe in the public's right to choose the food and drink they consume. However, we should make healthy choices easier," said Lois Utley, president of the Public Health Association of New York City. "By making the routine choice healthier, we are making it easier for our children. [They'll] come to a new idea for a new normal-size drink."

Kelly Brownwell, director of Yale University's Rudd Center for Food Policy & Obesity, posited that larger portions lead to over-consumption, and shrinking portion sizes would help people to eat in moderation. He also said that the body does not understand calories in liquids in the same way as it does for solid food, meaning people don't feel full from consuming a large soda and continue to intake calories they don't need.

The New Yorkers for Beverage Choices group, self-defined as a coalition of individuals, businesses and community organizations, was blasted by several speakers as an "astroturfing" effort by the beverage industry meant to portray a "grassroots" movement, when it's anything but. A quick review of the list of members reveals a number of bodegas, movie theaters and pizza joints but also Coca-Cola agency partners such as Starcom, Mediavest, Creative Artists Agency and Ammirati.


Many of the measures adopted in New York have become models for other cities, such as restrictions on smoking and trans fats and the requirement that restaurants post calorie counts next to prices.
http://adage.com/article/news/nyc-beverage-ban-debated-marathon-public-hearing/236284/


I notice that no one at the hearing was carrying on about having their "freedom restricted" by this ban--which has been your absurd objection. Maybe that's because you've drunk the KoolAid served up by the beverage industry in their media blitz, and most thinking people, unlike you, are smart enough not to fall for it. This ban won't affect anyone's freedom of choice, or how much soda or sugary crap they want to drink.

The irony is that you yourself are living proof of the fact that larger portions lead to over-consumption.

You have told us several times that,when you go to Cancun, and stay at an all-you-can-eat all-you-can-drink place, you stuff yourself like a pig, and drink like a fish, because you want to get your money's worth. And that's exactly why people buy, and consume, super-sized sugary drinks, they appear to be good value, and people consume these mega amounts because they want to get their money's worth--even if they would have been satisfied with a smaller amount.

Bloomberg is right--portion size drives consumption. And your eating habits prove that--when provided with more, you eat and drink more.

And, if soda sizes are no larger than 16 oz, people, who used to buy the mega sizes, may well find out that that's enough to satisfy them. After all, a serving of soda used to be 8 oz, or less, and most people stopped at one--and, in those days, we didn't have the obesity epidemic we have now.










firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 08:56 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
How about No government regulation by non-elected boards?

Are you proposing we do away with the FDA?

How about we completely de-regulate the financial sector, and eliminate any government oversight, so the economy can go completely down the toilet, instead of just the major meltdown we had 4 years ago.

You seem to consider any regulation a "nanny state" or "police state"--whether done by elected officials or appointees.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 09:07 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Are you proposing we do away with the FDA?


We could have an FDA that members that are elected dear or could be recall by the voters in some manner.

Right now they are in the hands of the drug companies approving news drugs for example with all the risks of unfounded side effects of new drugs that does not work better or some cases as well as the older drugs that are no longer in patent.

Oh and helping stop the gray market of reimporting of the same drugs that are available in others counties at a fraction of what the same manufacture drug cost in the US.

Yes an FDA where the public and the public interests have a voice instead of just the drug companies would be a good idea.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 09:15 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Right now they are in the hands of the drug companies approving news drugs for example with all the risks of unfounded side effects...

Well, if you don't trust the private sector, like Big Pharma, to self-regulate in the interest of public health, why would you trust the beverage industry to do that either? The beverage industry knows full well that those super-sized sugary drinks are helping to feed the obesity epidemic, just as the tobacco companies knew what they were doing to people's health with their product.

Tell us again, BillRM, how you stuff yourself, and drink like a fish, when you stay at a place that's all-you-can-eat-and-drink, because you want to get your money's worth, You prove Bloomberg's point perfectly, and your excessive consumption when larger amounts are available, justifies the thinking behind this super-sized soda ban.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 09:27 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
For someone who constantly points out how elected government officials are in the pocket of special interest groups, you are suddenly very naive to the fact that the elected officials at that meeting might be influenced by money thrown at them, and their campaign funds, by the beverage industry
.


Well given that they are the ones who will need to face the voters the fact that 60 percents of the voters do not approve of this nonsense is likely to have a larger impact then even special interest money.

As far as the good mayor is concern he is not going to be facing the voters again so he could care less alone the board members that he appointed.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 09:42 pm
@firefly,
If the board of health would concern itself on whether the water etc used in making sodas are safe and the machines that dispense the drinks are clean and safe I would have no problem with them.

They however are going way outside their charter and interfering with the right of citizens to buy sodas in a size container that many of them prefer.

The only time those jokers should be concern about the containers themselves are if there are issue of germs or industry chemicals and such other factors that make the containers unsafe.

Most of us do not wish for nannies in fact 60 percents of New Yorkers do not wish for the health department to become the nanny department and the only thing I find surprising about that is that it not 99.9999 percents of New Yorkers.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2012 11:47 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Most of us do not wish for nannies...

But, some people need nannies...like, maybe you...

I repeat, tell us again, BillRM, how you stuff yourself, and drink like a fish, when you stay at a place that's all-you-can-eat-and-drink, because you want to get your money's worth, You prove Bloomberg's point perfectly, and your excessive consumption when larger amounts are available, justifies the thinking behind this super-sized soda ban.

You've got this super-sized soda ban all wrong, it's not the consumers who need nannies, it's the vendors, who are pushing serving sizes that promote behaviors deleterious to health, who need nannies to discipline them. And it's those unhealthy practices the vendors promote that this ban is designed to curb, and it's the vendors that will be penalized with fines if they violate the ban. The nanny isn't for the consumer, who is still free to guzzle as much soda as he or she wants to--the nanny will be watching those vendors, and disciplining them, because they're the ones acting like irresponsible children when they ignore the negative impact of their product on public health. And that nanny will be performing a legitimate function of a government health department.

You have completely managed to avoid addressing the obesity epidemic in New York City which is the reason for this regulation. You'd think this regulation came about for no reason at all judging by your posts.

Don't kid yourself, New Yorker's are concerned about the obesity problem, and pretty much support Bloomberg's efforts to do something about it--40% of obese people want to lose weight. And trying to curb sugary drink sizes is only one aspect of how the City has approached the problem--they've run educational ad campaigns showing just how much sugar and calories are in the super-sized drinks, and they've gotten calorie counts posted in restaurants, to help consumers make better choices, and they are trying to make healthier food options accessible and available in less advantaged neighborhoods, as well as in the City hospitals and schools--they've given people information, more choices, and provided options to the junk.

But,most importantly, because Bloomberg hasn't ignored the obesity epidemic in his city, and he has taken action, he's greatly increased public awareness of the issue, he's stimulated discussion of the many factors involved in obesity, and he's gotten people thinking about their food and drink choices, including the portion sizes they consume. That's a very significant first step in tackling this problem--and trying to prevent it in the next generation.

You ignore things that Bloomberg, as mayor, and as someone genuinely interested in public health, doesn't want to ignore. Like the fact that the obesity rate among the Hispanic population in the Bronx is particularly high, and within that group, soda is consumed an average of three times a week. Reducing serving size may help to make a big impact within that group, in terms of obesity and the inset of Diabetes II. And there are other demographic groups in the City where high soda consumption and high obesity rates are linked.

You may rarely drink soda, but that's not true for a great many people in New York City who are drinking it regularly, and who are drinking it in portion sizes that are at least 20 oz each--I don't think you can't buy a smaller sized soda in a bottle at a deli, and I'm not sure you can get anything smaller in a NYC movie theater. A medium Coke at McDonald's is 21 oz, and the large Coke is 32 oz--limiting a serving size to 16 oz (McDonald's current "small") will make a big difference in calorie and sugar-intake for a frequent soda drinker over the course of a year. But the biggest difference will be in what's considered a normal serving size--and that's an important perception to change.
Quote:
But the real question is, ''Are we really smart enough to eat less when we are offered more?'' Probably not, according to Brian Wansink, director of Cornell University Brand and Food Lab and author of the 2007 book ''Mindless Eating.''

''Most of us are blissfully unaware of how much we eat,'' he wrote. In fact, he argues that, ''We all think we are too smart to be tricked by packages, lighting or plates. That is what makes mindless eating so dangerous. We are almost never aware it is happening to us.''

Wansink spends his time researching human behavior and food. What he finds is the bigger the plate, bowl, cup or spoon, the more we eat. He has done countless studies on this simple premise with everyone from movie theater patrons to nutrition professors and found the same thing: Give us more and we will eat it. The results are the same, no matter how ''smart'' we are.

According to U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates, Americans are consuming about 800 calories per person per day more than we were in the late 1950s.

Whether you are ordering a bagel, burger or a plate of pasta, you are getting more than ever before. Today's Happy Meal served to toddlers was the size of an adult meal when McDonald's first opened its doors. As portions grew, so have we.

If we are offered less, we will eat less. This new law challenges us to change the norms in America. This is a first step to making smaller portions the new normal and reversing the decades-long trend. Don't we deserve less?
http://blog.syracuse.com/opinion/2012/09/nycs_limit_on_soda_sizes_impor.html

Anyway, all of this debate is really moot. Unless this ban is successfully challenged in court by the beverage industry (aka New Yorkers for Beverage Choices), it will go into effect in March. And, like Bloomberg's other health initiatives, the people will accept it, mainly because it's not going to drastically change anyone's life--the big gulpers will just buy more than one cup of soda if one isn't enough, or they'll go over to 7-eleven and get a mega-sized one, because 7-eleven isn't a vendor covered by this regulation.

The main problem with the "ban" is all the loopholes in it, but at least it's a move in the right direction in terms of the obesity problem.




hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2012 01:01 am
@firefly,
Quote:
But, some people need nannies.


who decides?

Oh ya, that state does.

Please explain to be exactly what is the difference between today and the situation we faced in 1776 when the british pulled the exact same abusive
bullshit.

Quote:
You have completely managed to avoid addressing the obesity epidemic in New York City which is the reason for this regulation. You'd think this regulation came about for no reason at all judging by your posts.
obesity is a right and a choice of the citizen...if you or the government wants to rant against the choice of the people then feel free to have at it, but this is were your power properly ends under the Constitution.

Quote:
Anyway, all of this debate is really moot. Unless this ban is successfully challenged in court by the beverage industry (aka New Yorkers for Beverage Choices), it will go into effect in March. And, like Bloomberg's other health initiatives, the people will accept it, mainly because it's not going to drastically change anyone's life--the big gulpers will just buy more than one cup of soda if one isn't enough, or they'll go over to 7-eleven and get a mega-sized one, because 7-eleven isn't a vendor covered by this regulation.

wrong, the people being powerless to end their abuse at the hands of the state under the current regime will further throttle up the already rapidly increasing call for revolution and over through of the current regime. you police state advocates always tend to conveniently forget how many guns are passed around the masses, forget that the laws are only going to be obeyed so long as the majority decides that we wish to obey them. once the majority decides to turn on the police state, once the fear up manipulation of the masses stops working (and it always does), it is all over for the abusers.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2012 02:56 am
@hawkeye10,
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

That is such over the top hyperbole, given the fact that we are only talking about making a vendor limit the size of a serving of sugary junk to 16 oz.--something that in no way affects how much a consumer can buy or drink of that junk. And you are talking about the masses getting out the guns. Laughing

Boy, do you look jerky on that particular soapbox. Laughing
Quote:
obesity is a right and a choice of the citizen...

What an idiotic statement. Are you sure that obesity is guaranteed in the Constitution as a right? Laughing

I'm not sure people always make "a choice" to be obese, few people prefer being obese.

And don't worry, caped crusader, no one is taking away the "right" of anyone to be obese, or their right to eat and drink anything they want to--in any amount they want. This "ban" is aimed at the marketing practices of beverage purveyors--but it does not, at all, limit consumption by the consumer. So, I really don't think the masses will rise up. Laughing

A great many people who oppose this ban, including the one member of the Board of Health who did not vote for the proposal (he abstained) feel it doesn't go far enough, or feel it has too many loopholes, or feel it just won't accomplish anything, or feel that a tax on sugary drinks is a much better way to go, etc. But most people do not feel that the public health problem of obesity should just be ignored by the government--because it is a government problem, particularly in New York City, where the health-related costs of obesity and diabetes can be staggering, and it's the City who has to deliver the health and medical care, and bear the costs, for a great number of those 3 million obese people. And ultimately those costs affect everyone.

When they start imposing a "fat tax" on people whose weight exceeds certain limits for their build, you might have a case for all this horrible "abuse at the hands of the state" you apparently feel is going on with this relatively minor attempt to address the obesity epidemic.

Right now, you are creating a tempest in a soda cup. And it's so melodramatic, it's more comic than anything else. Laughing






OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2012 02:58 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Most of us do not wish for nannies...
firefly wrote:
But, some people need nannies...like, maybe you...
Even assuming that to be true,
needs do NOT confer jurisdiction upon government
to propagandize the citizens, after USURPING the power to do so
and effectively embezzling the funds (from extorted taxes)
that support the government 's propaganda campaign.

I took a ride on a subway yesterday n I was disgusted by an ad
against our consumption of "junk food" (including hamburgers).

When government was created, it was NOT granted jurisdiction to do that.

As a liberal, Mayor Bloomberg does not CARE whether he has jurisdiction or not; he fakes it.





David
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2012 03:24 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Right now, you are creating a tempest in a soda cup. And it's so melodramatic, it's more comic than anything else

i have no doubt but that the drip drip drip from the petty dictatorial state which has long massively bungled its main duties will get the attention of the masses. we proved once before that we are not european sheep, and we will do it again. have your fun mocking those of us who demand justice and freedom while you still can, as the future belongs to me and my comrades,
 

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