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Florida's Stand your Ground law

 
 
Ceili
 
  4  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 02:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
He's right. When did Americans become such pussies they can't handle a fist fight? When did everything become about shooting people, stand your ground, my ass..It's time Americans had a real conversation about guns and violence.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 02:41 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

He's right. When did Americans become such pussies they can't handle a fist fight? When did everything become about shooting people, stand your ground, my ass.
.


Of course he is right, over and over again we choose to go down the dead end street of whining about race. There are very few actual race problems in America anymore, what are called racial problems are almost always class problems.

Quote:
.It's time Americans had a real conversation about guns and violence
our broken education system gets in the way of that conversation, and our broken government pretty much ends any chance of doing any solutions. Still give Cosby his due, he continues to object to idiotic chatter, and to the black practice of refusing to talk about the real problems in black culture when others might be listening. The black comic keeps trying to keep it real...how ironic is that!!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 02:55 pm
I don't think it's necessarily either/or.

I think that race likely had a role in this, at the very least in that Zimmerman was not arrested immediately. The police were too quick to accept his story (which apparently, at the time, was that he was confronted by a strange black kid in a hoodie) and let him go.

I think that race might have had a role in Zimmerman's reaction to Trayvon Martin walking in his neighborhood.

But especially, I think this is a classic "hot state" thing and a reason I'm very anti-gun in general.

People in a hot state (a psychological state usually involving fear, anger, or arousal) can be very different than their cold-state selves. (Cold state -- calm, rational, everyday life.) They can do things in a hot state that they wouldn't do otherwise, and that they will regret.

And actions taken with a gun tend to be more final and irreversible than actions taken with a fist.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 03:06 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
The police were too quick to accept his story


So you think that the police in that town have a soft spot for Hispanics??!! Doubtful.

I have been doing some reading, I have a theory that the police did not arrest him because based upon the evidence and the state of Florida law they knew that getting a conviction was nearly impossible, so why make the effort. He was then arrested after considerable emotion driven political pressure was applied, but I still see no evidence that the law supports an arrest here.
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 04:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
I see no evidence that the law does NOT support an arrest here.

And that's pertinent.

Lacking such evidence, arrest him, process the scene as a crime scene, have a trial. Get to the bottom of it.

Meanwhile, I think the police were too quick to say something like "ooh, black kid with a hoodie walking in your neighborhood, yeah he was probably up to no good I believe your story," not that they have a soft spot for Hispanics.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 05:42 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
I see no evidence that the law does NOT support an arrest here.

And that's pertinent.

Lacking such evidence, arrest him, process the scene as a crime scene, have a trial. Get to the bottom of it.

Meanwhile, I think the police were too quick to say something like "ooh, black kid with a hoodie walking in your neighborhood, yeah he was probably up to no good I believe your story," not that they have a soft spot for Hispanics.
The justification was that Mr. Z was the victim of violence,
from which he rightfully defended himself.
There is no reason for anyone to be arrested in such circumstances.





David
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 06:12 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You think he'd have been arrested if he was black?
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 07:21 am
@OmSigDAVID,
If he initiated the confrontation (which he did), then he's not shielded. After he lost that shield, his responsibility changed from "I can shoot if I fear for my life" to "I have to attempt to escape before I can defend myself with deadly force."
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 11:02 am
@snood,
No I don't think he would have been. Since the SYG started there has been a sharp increase in the amount of people claiming self-defense and this includes black people I'm sure. We haven't heard anything about the arrest rate when it comes to people who have claimed SYG.

snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 12:19 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

No I don't think he would have been. Since the SYG started there has been a sharp increase in the amount of people claiming self-defense and this includes black people I'm sure. We haven't heard anything about the arrest rate when it comes to people who have claimed SYG.




Well, okay. Let's pretend there is equal protection of black and white men under the law. The only case on the books I've heard of where a black man tried to use the SYG law with a white shooting victim is the one with James Dooley. You can read about it here...

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/florida-shooting-focuses-attention-on-stand-your-ground-law/


Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 01:03 pm
@snood,
Sounds like a case of we don't know all the facts. I'm wondering how long it took from the time Dooley shot and killed James till he was arrested. Was he released the same day or did he sit in jail before going to trial?

0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 01:16 pm
@snood,
There's the one I linked to in the opening post, too, except that it's a black dude who shot another black dude. He was in jail for 3 years awaiting trial and finally acquitted. I've noticed that the area of the state where it happens seems to matter. In the south of the state (Miami and nearby) they seem generally less likely to take someone's word for it. Central Florida (Orlando and area, including Sanford), I read, won't make an arrest and refers all cases to the States Attorney.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 01:20 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Then when this vigilante shoots the guy, only racist pigs would deem him innocent of crime. That is the issue here.


I disagree, they could simply believe that he was attacked. Whether or not one finds that believable is not entirely contingent on their racism.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 01:51 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

There's the one I linked to in the opening post, too, except that it's a black dude who shot another black dude. He was in jail for 3 years awaiting trial and finally acquitted. I've noticed that the area of the state where it happens seems to matter. In the south of the state (Miami and nearby) they seem generally less likely to take someone's word for it. Central Florida (Orlando and area, including Sanford), I read, won't make an arrest and refers all cases to the States Attorney.


Can ANYONE find a case from ANYTIME, ANYWHERE when a black man was NOT prosecuted for shooting a white person? That's broad enough parameters that someone should find SOMETHING, don't you think?
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 01:58 pm
@snood,
Well there's that twist in the Oklahoma shootings recently. But that guy's dad's killer was still charged with gun violations, just not murder.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 02:15 pm
@snood,
So get to work then Snood.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 02:50 pm
@snood,
I'm pretty sure I saw an episode of NYPD Blue once where this happened....
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 02:56 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

So get to work then Snood.

No, see I think that people like you who seem to operate in denial of the manifest reality that black men aren't treated justly by the justice system should have the burden of proving their cockeyed belief. I'm guessing anyone who STILL thinks there's equal justice wouldn't be convinced otherwise by any means anyway.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 05:17 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

I'm pretty sure I saw an episode of NYPD Blue once where this happened....


lol - Yeah, right?

But seriously though - on the face of it, that doesn't SEEM like it would be too outlandish a request to make... For anyone to find any case where a black man shot a white person and was not prosecuted.

Even if they FOUND one or two, that would prove the exception to the rule; but I would be fascinated to actually learn of even ONE.

On the other hand, how hard do you think it would be to find cases where a white person shot a black person and was not prosecuted?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 06:30 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
If he initiated the confrontation (which he did), then he's not shielded. After he lost that shield, his responsibility changed from "I can shoot if I fear for my life" to "I have to attempt to escape before I can defend myself with deadly force."
It is wise for anyone whose head is being pounded on the sidewalk
to kill the perp ASAP, regardless of the Stand Your Ground Law.





David
 

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