44
   

Florida's Stand your Ground law

 
 
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 08:58 pm
My god, I just voted up a post by gungasnake. The world turned upside down.

Well, I've listened to the tape of George Zimmerman's call to 911, and I really can't think what else he says but "******* coons" (not to mention "these assholes always get away"earlier in the recording). The man had an agenda a mile wide and a mile deep, and he killed an innocent kid because of it. Take away his gun, as any RATIONAL law or person or society should do, and one less murder would have been committed.

FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:01 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

My god, I just voted up a post by gungasnake. The world turned upside down.


No, it's completely right. I voted it up too.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:03 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
He did have a duty not to cause a violent confrontation, though.

He caused the very fight that he's trying to use as a shield.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:09 pm
Quote:
Right now the nation has embarked on a massive conversation about race surrounding the tragic death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Florida. On Friday, President Obama weighed in. “I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out: How does something like this happen?” he said.

It’s an important conversation to have — but I fear it won’t lead anywhere. After all, we’ve seen plenty of these debates in recent years, invariably prompted by some tragedy or controversy. Think Troy Davis. Or Shirley Sherrod. Or Jeremiah Wright. Or Henry Louis Gates Jr. Or even Rodney King. We have big debates over racial prejudice and disparities in this country, and then nothing happens.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/having-obama-in-the-white-house-has-made-it-harder-to-talk-about-race-in-america/2012/03/14/gIQAmbMUWS_story.html?hpid=z2

Maybe because nothing should happen, because the only problem that is related to race is the victim culture, which constantly goes back to the well of race trying to justify its existence.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:34 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
He alleges that decedent perpetrated violence upon him.
It can be true.
gungasnake wrote:
That's pretty much grasping at straws in this one. Zimmerman basically picked a fight and was in the process of getting his ass beat in over it and pulled out a gun and killed a kid ten years his junior and eliminated any shot at the kid being able to tell his side of the story. Not too many people are going to feel sorry for him.
Your post is speculative.
It might possibly be accurate,
but it is the product of your imagination.

What I care about is the sanctity of the principle of self defense.
I wish that statutes of this nature proliferate universally thru out America.
We shud not subordinate the well being of victims to the safety of violent criminals.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:44 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
He did have a duty not to cause a violent confrontation, though.

He caused the very fight that he's trying to use as a shield.
He is guilty of that ONLY if he became violent before decedent did.

If he were speaking to Trayvon
and then Mr. Z became a victim of violence,
then he did not cause the fight. He has the right to free speech.





David
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:50 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
The right to free speech is the right not to have the government interfere with your political speech.

This is hardly a free speech issue.

Trayvon, going about his lawful business, should be free from interference.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 09:58 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
There's usually some sort of a territory factor involved in self defense cases...

Inside your own home is one thing; some place you happen to be is still believable if you're just standing there and come under attack for no rational reason. But when somebody like Zimmerman goes out of his way to provoke some sort of a confrontation and THEN pulls out a gun and kills somebody...

This guy just made life a lot harder for you and everybody else with any sort of a legitimate need for CC and the whole concept of CC may suffer for it, it's the first case I've ever read about in which a CC weapon was apparently misused.

OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 10:28 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
There's usually some sort of a territory factor involved in self defense cases...

Inside your own home is one thing;
some place you happen to be is still believable if you're just standing there
and come under attack for no rational reason.
U need to defend yourself wherever u happen to BE,
when u come under attack.
The perpetrator chooses that.
I was shot at while driving home
around midnite or 1 AM.
I did not select the territory.
I guess highway robbery is a "rational reason."





gungasnake wrote:
But when somebody like Zimmerman goes out of his way to provoke some sort of a confrontation and THEN pulls out a gun and kills somebody...

This guy just made life a lot harder for you and everybody else with any sort of a legitimate need for CC and the whole concept of CC may suffer for it, it's the first case I've ever read about in which a CC weapon was apparently misused.
I 'm pretty sure that we remain safe
qua concealed carrying and open carrying of defensive firepower,
but I 'm concerned that this will slow down the adoption of such laws
thru out the nation, i.e., extra-Castle Doctrine law.
Only about 5O% of the States have it yet.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 10:42 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
The right to free speech is the right not to have the government
interfere with your political speech.
Do other people have the right to stifle u, Drew????
OK, try it THIS way: I command u, DrewDad,
that since I am not the government,
and not constrained by the Bill of Rights,
that u must never speak unless u agree with me,
except on alternate Saturdays from 4 to 6 PM.
How 's that?? Will u be sufficiently docile to obay me ????
If u will,
then I 'll have some more commands for u to obay.


DrewDad wrote:
This is hardly a free speech issue.
Z was within his free speech rights to address anyone.


DrewDad wrote:
Trayvon, going about his lawful business, should be free from interference.
I challenge u on that.
I invite u to prove that. I don 't think u can.
I expect u to brush me off because that is all u can do.





David
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Mar, 2012 11:01 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I don 't understand.


Tell me something I don't know.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 01:32 am
I hope it's OK for an outsider (to the US) to comment here? (I say this because, a few times in the past I have effectively been told to butt out when posting on internal US issues. Wink )
I noticed that this thread was very active & was interested to know why.
So a short while ago I read the thread right through.
Now I can definitely understand why there has been so much interest & discussion in what occurred!

Anyway, here goes:

I'm at a complete loss in understanding how George Zimmerman actually believed in any way that he was responding to an "attack", under the stand-your-ground law.
It seems to me that his actions were based a subjective perception that someone in his neighbourhood didn't look "right". And was therefore "suspicious". Possibly looking for drugs.

Quote:
A stand-your-ground law is a law that allows a person to use deadly force, when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat. In some cases, a person may use deadly force in public areas without a duty to retreat. ...


Stand-your-ground law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

This is the best I can make of the events that actually occurred:

George Zimmerman noticed a person "acting suspiciously" in his gated community.
It is difficult to ascertain how exactly Trayvon Martin was "acting suspiciously", apart from the fact that he didn't look (to Mr Zimmerman) to be a member of that community. A young black man. Wearing a hoodie. And he was walking in the rain, which is what Mr Zimmerman reported to 911.

George Zimmerman decided to pursue Trayvon Martin, keeping 911 informed.

He was advised to not take matters in his own hands, that the police would investigate, but he continued following him anyway.

Somehow a scuffle between the two occurred & Trayvon Martin (who was unarmed) was shot dead by George Zimmerman.

After interrogation by the local police, George Zimmerman was allowed to return home & his gun was not confiscated.

Is it any wonder that the FBI became involved after that sequence of events?


Out of curiousity, I Googled George Zimmerman ... & (if this article is credible) discovered that:

* he wanted to be a police officer but was unsuccessful (apparently) in achieving that goal.
*
Quote:
Vigilantism seemed to be something George Zimmerman was particularly preoccupied with.


*
Quote:
... George Zimmerman's actual position as watchman is under question. There are indications that he might not have been an official watchman at all, reported the Washington Post.


* He'd had multiple run-ins with the law himself in the past.

Who is George Zimmerman? Florida Shooter Has Checkered Past Of ‘Vigilantism’ And Domestic Violence:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/318716/20120323/george-zimmerman-florida-shooting-trayvon-martin.htm

All of which makes me wonder - what protection do ordinary citizens like Trayvon Martin actually have, when compared with actions of a George Zimmerman?

I am so grateful that too many crazy people don't feel the need for gun access where I live!
And for the gun conrol laws where I live.
There but for the grace ... & all that.
And so hoping it stays that way!



msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 02:13 am
@msolga,
I failed to say ....
I have so much respect for those of you who continue (against all the odds) to push for saner gun laws in the US.
Good luck to you, I say!
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 02:17 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I failed to say ....
I have so much respect for those of you who continue (against all the odds) to push for saner gun laws in the US.
Good luck to you, I say!


Because we Americans so look up to you Australians as paragons of virtue. *sarcasm*
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 02:18 am
@msolga,
Regardless of your "much respect"
WE still have the right to live in a FREE COUNTRY, anyway!!!





David
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 02:27 am
@hawkeye10,
I was speaking as one poster to A2K.
That's all.
Certainly not on behalf of an entire nation.
Hug your gun ownership fantasies close at night, if that's what makes you feel safe. (pretty weird for a self-declared "socialist" Wink )
But me, I'm so grateful I don't have to entertain such fantasies.
And I applaud those members of the US A2K community who advocate saner gun laws.
izzythepush
 
  5  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 04:16 am
@OmSigDAVID,
The freedom to be gunned down in the street is a freedom you can keep, along with the freedom to die from treatable illnesses.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 04:46 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The freedom to be gunned down in the street is a freedom you can keep,
along with the freedom to die from treatable illnesses.
Thank u, Izzy. I always knew that I coud rely on u not to rob us of that freedom.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 04:49 am
@msolga,
The freedom-lovers, like me, already WON that dispute in 2OO8 and again in 2O1O.





David
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2012 05:25 am
@msolga,
Quote:
I have so much respect for those of you who continue (against all the odds) to push for saner gun laws in the US.
Good luck to you, I say!
Yo can see how the blind opposition to all gun laws by guys like Dave is crippling our law enforcement and is robbing us of sanity based on a belief in a right to uncontrolled gun wielding.

The "Satnd your Ground" law was crafted anbd drafted by the NRA lobby. Any pretext of sane gun laws seems almost lost for a generation or more. As the "light nyour hair on fire" gun advocates begin to die off perhaps the majority of people who wish for more sane gn laws will have theior voices heard. Right now, or civilization is in the hands of gun manfacturers and their toadies.

Im a gun owner bt I see that these laws like "Stand yor ground" are just stupid and will lead to vigilanteism like this gy.

Turns out that Zimmerman was asked to "Stand down" when on his 911 call

Eye witness accounts state that Zimmerman was actually STALKING the victim in some insane belief that the kkid was a"suspiicious person" Even if that were so, Zimmerman should have been reporting the initial incident and not escalate it further

STPID< STUPID< STUPID LAW. Florida had, until a few years ago, and OPEN CARRY requirement where guns became actual ensembles of ones dress.
I was working several jobs in the Florida mining district when this happened and I was repulsed by the nutbags who would go to lunch in a "Fla buffet" restaurant and slam their guns up on the table like some old western (even though this was not proper procedure). Gys like Dave celebrate that action but I say that , from most of the people who were open carrieres were real assholes in public
who I didnt want to be around wile they were armed.
I sometimes carry in the upper states mining areas where there are lots of small towns with the only available food at restaurant /bars. Locals gather in these places and there are assholes among these gys. (Usually they have deer rifles out in their trucks) . I try not to go back to local joints more than once in a row becase you become a topic of converstaion and sometimes belligerency (especially if the gys in a bar are nemployed miners).

Yeh, we have lots to fear both from the criminals AND from gun-nut folks who feel they are standing up for everyone elses safety (Carrying a gun does not impart any additional common sense than you were born with, in fact it sometimes turns off your common sense switches)
 

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