Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

@Ceili,

It's a good thing only when we have the administration that knows the difference between self-defense and offensive/aggression, and has preplanned its goals and exit strategy.

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@Ceili,

It's a good thing only when we have the administration that knows the difference between self-defense and offensive/aggression, and has preplanned its goals and exit strategy.

I travel extensively around the world, and most people I meet are friendly and knows the difference between the government and its people.

I literally have friends around the world - including Canada.

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i always knew the day would come when i'd have to apologize for being american.

would it help if i said i had a "not MY president" bumper sticker?

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@cicerone imposter,

c.i. I have no doubt of this either. You're a pretty friendly guy, who wouldn't want to be your friend.
I've enjoyed every trip I've made to the States. I like Americans. I'm not a fan of our administration either. And although the average Canuck likes to think of our forces as "peace keepers" our military doesn't.
We are now, for the most part, out of Afghanistan. As much as I'm sure our military tried to do good things, I feel it was a waste of life, time, energy and money. In the end, the goal was lost. I highly doubt, if the average Afghani thinks of us, it's with a rose coloured view. And I think it's probably the same with you all too.
White hats be damned.

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@Ceili,

100% what Ceili said.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Oh, I don't know about that. International polling of attitudes towards America is far higher than most countries that are out there. And the highest out of all the world super-powers.

Cycloptichorn

I agree with this, but I'm reminded of a phrase Merry Andrew used in the context of Republican Presidential candidates: "Best looking horse in the glue factory."

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Perhaps, but the white hat is long gone. Just saying.
And while some may think you're more trust worthy, nobody want's to turn their back on the world bank.. China. They have just as much influence, if not more.

I thought it was very telling when the Canadian dollar started moving up and down with the Chinese yuan, not with the American dollar. And the big financial measurements here are against the yuan, not the American dollar.

Things have really changed in the past 30 years, particularly rapidly in the past 5 years.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Ceili wrote:

Hate to break it to you Cyclo, I think the white hat's already been squandered. Maybe you can get it back one day, but for now, that boat has sailed.

Oh, I don't know about that. International polling of attitudes towards America is far higher than most countries that are out there. And the highest out of all the world super-powers.

And the truth is that, for the most part, the world still does what we want them to, without too much bellicose language on our part.

Cycloptichorn

OMG, under what rock are you hiding. You haven't been out in the world much, have you? The world, according to the United States, is over!
I hate to break it to you, but Americans are downright hated in most of the world - not the individual per se - but most certainly the government.

The world has bypassed the United States, they're doing their own thing
and not what the U.S. wants them to do. Gosh, you sound like a true Texas bully.

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@ehBeth,

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canada-quarterbacking-team-g20-in-push-against-chinas-yuan/article2367861/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2367861

Brazil.

I'd forgotten about Brazil. That's where the most impressive growth is going on right now in a number of financial segments.

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@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Ceili wrote:

Hate to break it to you Cyclo, I think the white hat's already been squandered. Maybe you can get it back one day, but for now, that boat has sailed.

Oh, I don't know about that. International polling of attitudes towards America is far higher than most countries that are out there. And the highest out of all the world super-powers.

And the truth is that, for the most part, the world still does what we want them to, without too much bellicose language on our part.

Cycloptichorn

OMG, under what rock are you hiding. You haven't been out in the world much, have you? The world, according to the United States, is over!
I hate to break it to you, but Americans are downright hated in most of the world - not the individual per se - but most certainly the government.

The world has bypassed the United States, they're doing their own thing
and not what the U.S. wants them to do. Gosh, you sound like a true Texas bully.

Polling results don't back up what you're saying. Not only that, but most of the countries of the world DO indeed do what we want them to do. This has been the case for a long time and remains so today. Nobody is claiming that we completely control them, but our nation still garners tremendous international support for initiatives we undertake. Especially when compared to other super-powers like Russia and China.

Keep in mind that I'm the guy who wants us to leave Afghanistan, and you're the one who wants us to stay and keep killing people - and I'm the bully?!!

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

What polls are you talking about ? Please provide a link if you can.

No, no, I don't want the Americans to stay in Afghanistan to kill people - I never was in favor of going there in the first place. However, now that they've made a mess there, they need to clean it up.

You just cannot pull out the troops without restoring some sort of government and infrastructure to the country. No matter what you call it in your delusional state of patriotism, the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, let's not forget that.

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@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

What polls are you talking about ? Please provide a link if you can.

No, no, I don't want the Americans to stay in Afghanistan to kill people - I never was in favor of going there in the first place. However, now that they've made a mess there, they need to clean it up.

What does that mean, CJ? It means killing people. When we stay, they are trying to kill US. The only way to stop them from trying to kill us is to kill THEM. You don't seem to realize this fundamental fact of the situation. 'Cleaning up' the mess = killing more people, plain and simple.

Quote:

You just cannot pull out the troops without restoring some sort of government and infrastructure to the country.

They have a form of government - it was even elected. And there's no infrastructure to restore, because they didn't have much of any before we came. I'm sorry, but you don't seem to know much about the actual situation over there. You may want to call me a 'bully' (which is laughable as I'm the one who wants us to leave completely) but I think your recommendations are vague and naive.

Quote:

No matter what you call it in your delusional state of patriotism, the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, let's not forget that.

This is really rich. I've been a constant critic of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I marched against both wars many times. I'm now arguing that we should leave and should have left a long time ago, because our primary mission there was accomplished long ago - and with the death of Bin Laden, we're REALLY done with the place. And yet, I somehow have 'deluded patriotism???

We invaded Afghansitan b/c the sons-of-bitches who ran the place were defending terrorists who attacked us; when we asked them to turn the guys over for justice, they very famously and loudly told us to **** off. So we went in and destroyed their asses, an act which we had the perfect right to do, and if some other country attacks us in the same fashion, we'll do it again. The only problem is that we didn't leave immediately afterward, but Bush had some sort of Crusade in his mind (the original plan was to take out Pakistan, Iran and Syria as well, and if things hadn't gone south in Iraq, they would have tried to do it). Don't you forget that their leadership invited us to attack them through both their actions and their words.

As for the polls regarding world opinion, I will look around and find you some definitive links for that. But the truth is that since Obama was elected, world opinion of the US has risen markedly. Here's a good place for you to start:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8626041.stm

And here's the results of a 2011 BBC poll -

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/images/mar11/BBCEvals_Mar11_graph18.jpg

This is up markedly from 2006 and 2007, at which time world views of the US were much more negative.

Cycloptichorn

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@JPB,

I see your view, and probably always have, but I also remember my own ick factor that we were arming the mujahadeen to fight off the domino effect, that is, Russia (for whatever complicated or simple reasons). We liked who we liked at any given time and that changed. I remember articles a lot of years ago about the tribal culture of Afghanistan, and thinking, later, what are we doing.

I agree that the villagers pay.

Slightly apropo of all this, I'm reading the Monica Ali book, Brick Road. Not at all the same situation, Bangladesh and London, but related issues in it. I'm half way through.

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@CalamityJane,

That's the question, the nut. And if we stay in any way, is it not all suspect re our greediness for putative good reasons and assumed and probably true, at least by others than us, there for greedy ones.. More money chase.

Meantime, we have our own crumbling infrastructure, and a lot of people in trouble, including Afghanistan veterans. Oh, and Iraq veterans. And Vietnam veterans.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Too late Cyclo. We have been using our military to further our economic policies for 130 years. Who in their right mind would trust the U.S governments word when it came to business or anything else?

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@thack45,

Dont you mean Bush is not my president?

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@thack45,

Don't you mean Bush is not my president? He is the stupid bastard who started the whole less kick ass in the middle east thing.

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@RABEL222,

You wrote,

Quote:

Who in their right mind would trust the U.S governments word when it came to business or anything else?

You got that spot on! I don't trust our government on most things, and that's because of my personal experience, what I've learned about our government through these years. and what they have done through the CIA, exposure of Plame, exposure of our soldiers to nuclear explosions, and starting wars on lies.

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@CalamityJane,

So you think the U.N., Russia, china and the smaller countries are taking the place of the U.S. military? How do you explain Seria. And dont think that I am attacking you because I wish the U.N. was a viable power but it has too many countries like the U.S. who look only after themselves. There isent a big country who gives a **** about its average citizen in the world. Only the 1% count.

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@CalamityJane,

Why? Powers have been trying to establish government there since The Turkish empire collapsed. What makes you think we will be successful when the Afgans dont really care about anything but what their warloards want?

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Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

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