Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

@InfraBlue,

Sgt Bales has been charged (appropriately, imo) with the murder of those he executed. Your post to cyclo doesn't address whether NATO forces should remain in Afghanistan. How do you way in on that question? Are we there because we can't expect the locals to stand up to our expectations?

3 Replies

@JPB,

Quote:

Are we there because we can't expect the locals to stand up to our expectations?

You're still avoiding the realities, JPB, in favor of the propaganda.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Says you.

I'm still trying to figure out why we still have troops in Afghanistan and why keeping them there for another three years is in anyone's best interests.

2 Replies

@JPB,

Quote:

Says you.

See, JPB, that's indicative of the problem. It's not me. It's the facts. The US invasion of Afghanistan was illegal because it went against the very laws that the US established to prevent such actions. There was no UN go ahead. In fact the UN said no quite clearly.

This is a pattern that has been repeated often by the US. It's not like this is the US's first time. What is illegal for the goose is also illegal for the gander. But you want to gander at everything but the facts.

Quote:

I'm still trying to figure out why we still have troops in Afghanistan and why keeping them there for another three years is in anyone's best interests.

You didn't just fall off the turnip wagon yesterday, JPB. Why indeed? Do you remember what Smedley Butler described? What has been the reason for all the US invasions of all these sovereign nations for over a century?

1 Reply

@JPB,

Yes, but the Afghan people in that village as well as the Afghan government
issued a statement saying that it was a group of American soldiers not only
Sgt. Bales. When they performed an autopsy, they discovered that the victims died of wounds coming from several different bullets.
This was immediately disputed by the American military saying that soldiers carried more than one weapon, however, the Afghan government is determined now to prove to the world that Sgt. Bales did not act alone.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,822842,00.html (sorry it's in German)

The Spiegel further reports that Sgt. Bales entire internet history was erased as well as his wives private blog entries.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

Yes, but the Afghan people in that village as well as the Afghan government
issued a statement saying that it was a group of American soldiers not only
Sgt. Bales. When they performed an autopsy, they discovered that the victims died of wounds coming from several different bullets.
This was immediately disputed by the American military saying that soldiers carried more than one weapon, however, the Afghan government is determined now to prove to the world that Sgt. Bales did not act alone.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,822842,00.html (sorry it's in German)

The Spiegel further reports that Sgt. Bales entire internet history was erased as well as his wives private blog entries.

I certainly wouldn't be shocked to find out that it was a cover-up.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@JPB,

We should have left Afghanistan last year; waiting longer only increases the problems for pulling out. Actually, we should never have been in Afghanistan to begin with.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Actually, we should never have been in Afghanistan to begin with.

I agree!

0 Replies

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
Says you.

See, JPB, that's indicative of the problem. It's not me. It's the facts. The US invasion of Afghanistan was illegal because it went against the very laws that the US established to prevent such actions. There was no UN go ahead. In fact the UN said no quite clearly.

This is a pattern that has been repeated often by the US. It's not like this is the US's first time. What is illegal for the goose is also illegal for the gander. But you want to gander at everything but the facts.

And that explains why we're still there... how, exactly?

JBP wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out why we still have troops in Afghanistan and why keeping them there for another three years is in anyone's best interests.

Quote:
You didn't just fall off the turnip wagon yesterday, JPB. Why indeed? Do you remember what Smedley Butler described? What has been the reason for all the US invasions of all these sovereign nations for over a century?

You're right. I'm a long distance from a ride on the turnip truck. I strive to be a realist. I'm no ideologue or flag waver. It's time to pull the plug on this mission with the best interests of the Afghan people in mind. They need to be at the table with a full voice and vote on how we best pull out, but pull out we must. Soon.

1 Reply

@JPB,

Already We've been moving along the path of getting out, I think every moments of all these wars brings more hate.Defense spending should be for defense.Americanism will be fall down in the way.

0 Replies

@JPB,

I think we are still there because the Obama Administration was backed into a corner by Gen. Stanley McChristal back in 2010 when the administration had announced an earlier, quicker pullout to begin in 2011. McChristal wanted more troops and time for his counterinsurgency plan, COIN, in Afghanistan, so he leaked information from one of his reports to the press about how dire the situation was. 40,000 more troops and more time were needed otherwise the mission in Afghanistan would be an utter failure. He got more time, 30,000 troops, and promptly got replaced.

The administration then set the withdrawal time for 2014, and looks to stand by that time frame for the purposes of saving face. It has nothing to do with what we expect from the locals in regard to our expectations of them. People back then speculated that the counterinsurgency would be futile:

"The entire COIN strategy is a fraud perpetuated on the American people. The idea that we are going to spend a trillion dollars to reshape the culture of the Islamic world is utter nonsense." Douglas Macgregor, a retired colonel and leading critic of counterinsurgency who attended West Point with McChrystal. (from Rolling Stone's McChrystal article)

The thinking was that if the counterinsurgency worked in Iraq, then it would work in Afghanistan, but the two countries' circumstances and particulars couldn't be more dissimilar. That's what both the political and military leadership failed to take into account.

So much for the neocon doctrine of regime change.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

I think we are still there because the Obama Administration was backed into a corner by Gen. Stanley McChristal back in 2010 when the administration had announced an earlier, quicker pullout to begin in 2011. McChristal wanted more troops and time for his counterinsurgency plan,

That is complete slander....McChrystal is a good soldier, he does what he his told by his bosses, he does not try to manipulate them even when his bosses are idiots.

1 Reply

Oh please.....

Quote:

McChrystal's Zarqawi unit, Task Force 6-26, became well known for its interrogation methods, particularly at Camp Nama, where it was accused of abusing detainees. After the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal became public in April 2004, 34 members of the task force were disciplined.

Quote:

McChrystal was one of eight officers recommended for discipline by a subsequent Pentagon investigation but the Army declined to take action against him.

Quote:

Shortly after McChrystal assumed command of NATO operations, Operation Khanjar commenced, marking the largest offensive operation and the beginning of the deadliest combat month for NATO forces since 2001.

These quotes are from wikipedia - other sources were even less sympathetic to McChrystal. He's a military man all right, he wanted to play war in the worst way and unfortunately Obama supported him initially.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

As I've often said, it's foolish to ask generals about expansion of wars, because they'll say "yes" 100% of the time. Soldiers can only make a name for themselves from war; otherwise they become the "unknown."

It's called conflict of interest; it's human nature. A soldier doesn't serve thinking they'll never have to serve in battles.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

This has been true since before Vietnam. Asking military men wether we should expand a war zone is like asking a politician if they want a pac.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

McChrystal is a good soldier

That's an oxymoron, Hawk. McWhatever is, as CJ, CI and Rabel have pointed out, just another war criminal who wanted to plump up his resume.

Had he been "good" in any sense of the word, he would have resigned from the US military in protest of the initial illegal and highly immoral invasion.

Need I remind you of the horrendous brutalities the US has inflicted upon the people of Afghanistan over the last 30 years. Actually, and sadly, I must, repeatedly, because you lot are so incredibly conceited that you can't begin to comprehend what you do.

This whole thread is nothing more than the typical American circle jerk - a huge pretense of deep reflection when all it is is another, again typical, huge ego stroke.

0 Replies

@JPB,

Quote:

And that explains why we're still there... how, exactly?

It doesn't have to explain that particular aspect, JPB. It's enough to point up the war crimes. Surely they are of much greater import than the piffling troubles that this bring to America.

To allow you folk to engage in this much overindulged behavior of pondering how badly these illegal invasions, these brutal crimes, these heinous actions impact the US and its citizens would be among the grossest forms of dishonesty.

It happened after Vietnam, after y'all had inflicted nearly half a century of horrendous brutality upon the people of SE Asia.

It's happening again in Iraq and Afghanistan and right now, who knows what other countries around the world.

Quote:

You're right. I'm a long distance from a ride on the turnip truck. I strive to be a realist. I'm no ideologue or flag waver. It's time to pull the plug on this mission with the best interests of the Afghan people in mind. They need to be at the table with a full voice and vote on how we best pull out, but pull out we must. Soon.

No, you are not a rabid flag waver but you give those people license to ensure that this will happen again to another group of innocents somewhere, sometime, likely soon given your track record.

The best interests of the Afghan people will be served not by just cutting and running as has been done numerous other times. All that will do is, again, give license to the maudlin complaints from America about how badly it has suffered.

The interests of the Afghans and the myriad other nationalities that have suffered from the brutality that is America will be to demand that the war criminals are held to account.

The concept is so simple that I'm amazed that no one has mentioned it already. Rolling Eyes

Excuse my candor but you know that's the only real solution.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

The interests of the Afghans and the myriad other nationalities that have suffered from the brutality that is America will be to demand that the war criminals are held to account.

I agree on a broader scale. And, while many (most?) Americans don't have the inclination to pursue crimes against humanity until it crosses a line that no one can ignore (and even then look only at the narrow picture and not the larger one), I tend to want to look at the bigger issues. That's true in this case as well, but not on this thread. The fight against might is a larger discussion that I'm more than willing to participate in, but this thread is specifically about timelines and why we have them. Planning is all well and good. So are timelines associated with those plans when things seem to be going according to plan. But when it becomes obvious, even to those of us sitting thousands of miles away from the field and mostly untouched by the events, that the plan isn't working then it's time for an overhaul of the plan with all interested parties at the table.

2 Replies

@JPB,

A soldier from Gilroy killed his own family members as a result of PTSD. This kind of story doesn't get the national press they deserve, and is the real reason why we've already overstayed our welcome in Afghanistan. We're doing more harm to both the Afghanistanis and American soldiers. Where's the benefit?

The "cost" of the war doesn't disappear just because we stop.

0 Replies

@JPB,

Quote:

I tend to want to look at the bigger issues.

There is no bigger issue than a million and a half innocents killed because of two illegal invasions, JPB. There is no bigger issue than y'all fiddlin' while US government agents go on causing discord and strife the world over, while y'all allow these criminals to go on stealing the bread out of other folks children's mouths.

What bigger issue could there possibly be than half a million Iraqi children killed by the US and its little group of suckups?

What bigger issue could there possibly be than that of the majority of Americans not giving a damn that their governments commit war crimes on a regular basis, that their governments are the biggest terrorists on the planet?

1 Reply

Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know