Some of Concerns Facing Me When (If) I Have to Vote HRC

Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 06:58 am
I would appreciate it if you and the rest of her fans would address these issues point by point.

Iraq war vote
TPP support
KXL support
Pro arctic drilling
Pro for Profit Prisons
Pro Monsanto
Bankruptcy bill
Voting for a border fence
Saying child migrants should be sent home
Using her position as SoS to push fracking on the rest of the world
Wall Street donations
Six digit speaking fees
Taking money from weapons deals
Comments about nuking Iran
Voted to raise credit card interest rates
Opposing gay marriage in New York State
Brownbeck Amendments
No living wage
No free college
No universal health care (ACA coverage gap....ACA will never provide UHC)
No medical Marijuana
Supports mandatory sentencing
Says that she's "proud of" the way Walmart does business
United States-Chile Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act
United States-Singapore Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act
Free trade - Oman agreement
Voted FOR Gitmo. --- Hillary voted against the Byrd ammendment and against a large majority of democrats to reduce Guatanamo funding by $36,000,000. She joined the republican majority against the majority of democrats in supporting Guantanamo.
Pro death penalty
Pro cluster bombing
Pro increased carcinogens in drinking water
Clinton policies lead to the largest mass incarceration of human beings in the history of the world
and the list goes on...

How women workers faired at Walmart when Hillary was on it's board:

Hillary on Gay marriage in 2004:

Hillary wants to attack Iran: http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clinton-if-im-president-we-will-attack-iran/5460484

Hillary pushed Fracking on the rest of the planet: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron

Hillary and childhood poverty: http://www.salon.com/2015/10/15/the_worst_thing_hillary_clinton_has_ever_done/

What Hillary calls "feminism" : https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/03/hillary-clinton-womens-rights-feminism/

Hillary's campaign had a gender pay gap: http://freebeacon.com/politics/hillary-clintons-campaign-has-a-gender-pay-problem/

Hillary takes millions in campaign cash from her "enemies": http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/10/14/hillary-takes-millions-in-campaign-cash-from-enemies

Hillary open to raising the retirement age and reducing SS benefits: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/hillary-clinton-indicates-she-is-open-to-raising-the-retirement-age.html

Bernie has a MUCH better record of accomplishments as Senator than Hillary does: https://pplswar.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/fact-bernie-sanders-got-more-done-in-the-senate-than-hillary-clinton/

When you ask me to vote for Hillary: https://medium.com/@Lookingforrobyn/when-you-ask-me-to-vote-for-hillary-174becdb5ccc#.2ixs3cg5o

Hillary's legacy of pushing the party to the right: http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/33869-hillary-clinton-s-ghosts-a-legacy-of-pushing-the-democratic-party-to-the-right

Chomsky: Democrats are now moderate Republicans:http://trofire.com/2015/09/23/noam-chomsky-dems-are-now-moderate-repugs-republicans-are-now-off-the-spectrum-of-reality/

The political compass finds Bernie to be the most centrist candidate, Hillary falls into the right wing Authoritarian spectrum:: http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016

Bernie rejects big fundraising events: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/features/2015-03-26/bernie-sanders-hates-money-in-politics-the-very-thing-he-ll-need-to-beat-clinton

Debunking the "Bernie has a Super PAC" lie: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/debunking-the-big-bernie-sanders-has-a-superpac-lie/

Elizabeth Warren on Hillary Clinton: https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/videos/986305904741661/

A comparison of bills put forth by Bernie and Hillary: http://giphy.com/gifs/clinton-vs-sanders-bills-passed-according-to-congressgov-3o6gaQaIZcGAW7hCfu

Hillary helps a bank, which then funnels millions to the Clintons: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/hillary-helps-a-bankand-then-it-pays-bill-15-million-in-speaking-fees/400067/

Under Sanders, incomes and jobs would soar:http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/08/news/economy/sanders-income-jobs/

Electing Bernie would usher a wave of "Bernie Democrats" into Congress: https://newrepublic.com/article/129047/bernies-army-running-congress

Bernie vows to stop disastrous TPP deal: http://ecowatch.com/2015/10/05/sanders-stop-tpp-deal/

Bernie's foreign policy positions are solid and through: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/02/bernie-sanders-foreign-poicy-213619

Hillary's foreign policy record is dismal: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-ritter/hillary-clinton-foreign-policy-record_b_9221284.html

Bernie has plenty of foreign policy knowledge: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/02/bernie-sanders-foreign-poicy-213619

Hillary's foreign policy record is a disaster: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-ritter/hillary-clinton-foreign-policy-record_b_9221284.html

Top economist, UN advisor and climate activist: "Clinton is a danger to world peace" http://m.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/15/1485382/-Top-economist-UN-advisor-and-climate-activist-Clinton-is-a-danger-to-world-peace

The pragmatic case for Bernie Sanders: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/the-pragmatic-case-for-bernie-sanders/462720/

Who could beat Trump? Bernie by a wide margin, while Hillary could lose against him: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-destroys-donald-trump-by-13-points-6-more-than-clinton-_b_8936840.html

Bernie Sanders would beat Donald Trump 51-38 in a general-election: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/poll-against-bernie-sanders-donald-trump-would-get-schlonged-20151223#ixzz3zvCwk44J

Poll shows that Hillary could easily lose to Trump in the General election: http://www.inquisitr.com/2667052/poll-shows-hillary-clinton-could-easily-lose-to-donald-trump-in-general-election/

Hillary voted to allow more carcinogens in drinking water: http://usuncut.com/news/hillary-clinton-groundwater-pollution/

In Europe, Sanders would be Center-Right: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-19/in-europe-sanders-would-be-center-right
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 07:56 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Could you and Clinton's detractors address those issues point by point and say why you are concerned?
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 08:03 am
I can give you the general issue that is shown by most of these examples.

Hillary Clinton represents political gamesmanship where political leverage is more important that principle. She takes Wall Street money. She has a Super-Pac. She changes her stances on positions as polls dictate.

My concern is that the second Clinton administration is going to be like the first (where Bill Clinton had the same attitude about political leverage).

The first Clinton administration gave us DOMA, and Welfare Reform, and tough on crime bills. These bills were great politically, but they set back LGBT rights, kicked mentally ill and truly needy people on the streets (increasing the rate of homelessness in these groups) and led to a large increase of African-American males being incarcerated.

My concern is that the second Clinton administration will (again) spend too much time playing cynical political games to get leverage from powerful allies, and not enough time taking principled stances for Americans who truly need an advocate.

You can apply this concern to most of the issues above. There is nothing that Hillary Clinton has done to assuage these concerns.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 08:14 am
That explains about a third of that list. I have no idea what Egypt or Yemen even mean, but I assume the OP did. I can defend Clinton on TPP. I can understand her position on Keystone XL. I don't care about her speaker fees and I would take them myself in a minute. I agree that Clinton is not my ideal candidate but I doubt I will ever find my ideal candidate unless I decide to run. (I agree with just about all of my current positions, but some of my positions in the past would cause me concern.) I don't have any problem voting for Clinton or Sanders against the current Republican offerings.

I also understand and support realpolitik. If Clinton can get half a loaf out of the Republican Congress, that would be something. I completely supported the President's attempt to work with the Republicans and I completely supported his willingness to walk away and take a hard line when the refused to negotiate. I think Clinton will do the same. Yes, she might give some ground in areas where I wouldn't to get some gains, but I don't think she is her husband and I don't judge her by his failures and successes.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 08:53 am
That is not my list. You offered an invitation to Clinton detractors to explain our concerns. I am a Clinton detractor.

I was deeply disappointed with the policies of the first Clinton administration. You asked what my concern is, and this really is at the core of it. And Hillary can't hide completely behind her husband. From gay marriage to Iraq to super-predators Hillary has been making what I consider to be bad policy decisions on her own.

I may be pleasantly surprised with a Hillary administration. Who knows the future? To me Sanders represents the best chance at something new that isn't just more of the same from the political elite.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 09:44 am
I frankly don't see her as much more than a Republican.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 09:45 am
@bobsal u1553115,

Iraq war vote -She was lied to and voted for it. So did just about everyone else. Polling at the time showed about 80% of the population was in support of it because they were also lied to. Now less than 40% think it was a good idea.

TPP support - Didn't she recently come out against it?

KXL support - As Sec of State she was supposed to be impartial during the review process. For her to come out against it would have shown bias in the review process.

Pro arctic drilling - She came out against it

Pro for Profit Prisons - Evidence of this?

Pro Monsanto - ??

Bankruptcy bill - which one?

Voting for a border fence - ?? which specific bill are you talking about?

So far. I see a lot of vague allegations that I don't need to answer. You need to provide something other than the vague statement as to why you think Hillary has a position and why you think it is bad.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 09:55 am
I really like this one

"Pro increased carcinogens in drinking water"

I mean, I always KNEW that HRC wanted to give the world cancer. That !@#$%.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 09:57 am
Bernie Sanders voted against the auto bailout....if I wanted to make a list like this one I could say...

Pro children starving
Pro families losing healthcare
Pro unemployment
Pro suicide

That's about the level of intelligence of that list.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 09:58 am
If you can't see the difference between her and Trump/Cruz then you need to open your eyes.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:12 am
Bernie Sanders voted against the auto bailout....if I wanted to make a list like this one I could say...

You do realize that this is a political dirty trick, right?

Sanders voted against a large bill that had the auto bailout as a part of it. He said at the time he was voting against the Wall Street bailout, not the auto bailout.

Sanders always strongly supported the auto bailout.

This is a Hillary Clinton dirty trick.

Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:17 am
When Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq war, it was because she supported the Iraq war. When Hillary Clinton supported the crime bill because of "super-predators" it was because she supported the crime bill and was afraid of "super-predators". When Hillary Clinton opposed same-sex marriage, it was because she opposed same-sex marriage.

When we talk about Hilllary Clinton's flawed policy position, we aren't using dirty tricks and insinuations based on votes on flawed bills.

If we talk about Hillary's actual positions based on her own statements compared to Bernie Sanders actual positions, you see a continual patter of Bernie Sanders taking the courageous progressive stand on every issue except for gun rights.

When the facts show that Bernie Sanders hasn't taken the more progressive position, I am honest enough to admit it... and gun control is an example of this.

But the rest of it is just more Clinton dirty tricks.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:20 am
At least I still have eyes. Open your brain.
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Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:23 am
I get it.

My point is that you can take any vote and make a list of negative sounding things to make a candidate look bad. Whatever anti-Hillary website made the list that the OP posted did just that.
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Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:30 am
Regarding same-sex marriage - the entire country has changed positions on that one since the 80's/90's/00's. It's not just her.

Regarding the crime-bill - you do remember how much of a problem inner city gang warfare was right (and it was indeed warfare). The Clinton's passed a bill that the country supported, that BLACK leaders supported, that mayors of large cities supported, that congress supported. Part of that crime bill was the assault weapons ban, which was a huge concession from the right. I was too young to support this back then, but given the climate back then and without the 20/20 hindsight that you're keen to enjoy talking about, I would have supported it too. Regardless, federal prisoners aren't the major-issue with black-male incarceration. State governments went quite a bit further. And gang members who murder each other ARE super-predators.

The Iraq war has been rehashed for over a decade. I'm glad Bernie was against it, but he's been so ineffective at his job in his career that even though I'd like to think that his ability to be a fortune seer will mean that he'll get some of his goals accomplished, his career has shown me that he's one of the most ineffective leaders of men in government. No demonstrated ability to implement his agenda.

Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:38 am
I supported same sex marriage in the 80's 90's and 00's. So did Bernie.

I was upset about the crime bill and I was worried about the defamation of black young men at the time. So was Bernie (this is another case where he voted for the bill based on one part of the bill while railing against the racial targeting of black males).

I oppose the Iraq war. So did Bernie.

You and I probably are probably at different points in the political spectrum. But for people who share my values of economic fairness and social justice, Bernie is a clear favorite.

Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:45 am
maxdancona wrote:

You and I probably are probably at different points in the political spectrum. But for people who share my values of economic fairness and social justice, Bernie is a clear favorite.

I probably share those same values Maxdancona, and on those issues I agree that Bernie's views are probably better than Clinton's (although I think they're probably much closer then you think they are).

I'm much more worried about his effectiveness at pushing his agenda and of course on literally every other issue in the country/world that Bernie has little to no experience in.

Obama had some pretty grandiose things to say during the primaries and election too...once he got into office the realities of the job, the nuances of the policies, and the compromises that one must take to govern an entire nation (not just the small vocal minority) mandated a more tempered presidency than he promised. Sanders will have to do the same thing if he wins.
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Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 10:46 am
maxdancona wrote:

That is not my list. You offered an invitation to Clinton detractors to explain our concerns. I am a Clinton detractor.

I'm not a hard core Clinton supporter myself. My issue with the OP was this:
I would appreciate it if you and the rest of her fans would address these issues point by point.

I asked the OP (or anyone else who wanted) to "address those issues point by point and say why you are concerned". I think several of them are debatable. I have no idea what some of the others are. I get that Clinton has a long history and some of her positions from some time back look questionable in light of what we know today. Heck, some of my positions from some time back look questionable to me today. I don't approve of a few of Clinton's current positions, but she is in no way the equivalent of a today's Republican. The OP throwing out a long list of words and inviting people to see concerns doesn't make a valid argument.

I agree with you that Sanders represents a wing of the progressive movement that has been beaten down and silent for a long time and it is good to hear them speak up again. If he gets the nod, I'd happily vote for him. If I have to say who might actually get something done, I'd have to go for Clinton.
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 11:03 am
We will see how the likely Clinton administration goes. I live in Massachusetts. My vote is worth absolutely nothing in the general election. I hope that, assuming she will win, she is able to fulfil her promise to get things done in the right direction.

In the primary my heart my vote and my money is with Bernie. I believe that Bernie would be far better for the country. I don't believe that Clinton will be a disaster. I do think that she will be roughly what we expect.. more of the same. Yes, I would rather she win than any of the republicans... but she still represents a great disappointment.

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bobsal u1553115
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2016 11:05 am
I put my concerns down first and my documentation after the youtube videos. Point out an issue or two where you think I got it wrong.

IE: private prison industries - I have concerns with putting prisons in the hands of companies that have no vested interest in rehabilitating criminals or having reduced prison populations while compelling prisoners to work for slave wages while making maximum profits from slave labor.
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