Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

We can debate forever whether we should be there. You'll be hard pressed to convince many Americans that our entry there was anything other than a response to a declaration of war against the US with the full backing of the Taliban - the ruling gov't of Afghanistan at the time.

Afghanistan (I didn't support the invasion from the word "go" though I know others did), Iraq, Vietnam .....

But really, the point I was trying to make, it's the attitude to "US allies" on threads like this which kinda offends .....

Many of you treat these US-initiated wars as if they were almost entirely about US internal politics & little else.

But they would not surrender Bin Laden, or something to that effect.

NOVEMBER 01, 2004

Give Him an "F" in the War on Terror

How Bush Was Offered Bin Laden and Blew It

by ALEXANDER COCKBURN And JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

George Bush, the man whose prime campaign plank has been his ability to wage war on terror, could have had Osama bin Laden’s head handed to him on a platter on his very first day in office, and the offer held good until February 2 of 2002. This is the charge leveled by an Afghan American who had been retained by the US government as an intermediary between the Taliban and both the Clinton and Bush administrations.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/11/01/how-bush-was-offered-bin-laden-and-blew-it/

Cyclo,
the point is - you don't know where Bin Laden was after 9/11, the U.S. didn't know nor do I. I gave the NYTimes article as they cited he fled to Pakistan
after the U.S. invaded Afghanistan.

Now read a bit of foreign press - this one is from the guardian, written in
October of 2001.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

What do you make of this? Bush could have ended the war right then and there...

Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty". In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country".

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added.

But it would have to be a state that would never "come under pressure from the United States", he said.

Threats of new terrorist strikes against Britain and the US from Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida group amount to an admission of guilt for the September 11 attacks, the deputy prime minister, John Prescott, said today.

Mr Prescott, speaking while on a diplomatic mission in Moscow, argued that the latest statement from al-Qaida strongly suggested Bin Laden's culpability for last month's attacks on New York and Washington.

"What I have heard about the message given ... is basically confirming, I think, the guilt of Bin Laden, who has made it clear that he wants to continue these actions," he told BBC1's Breakfast with Frost programme this morning.

And this is more bullshit. I'm no more deluded than you are about what you perceive as propaganda and truth.

and we have had a history of coming to the aid of nations who need it - both in terms of financial largesse and aid (nobody gives away nearly as much in foreign aid as we do) and in military terms (ask, say, Libyans, if they like us or not).

The idea of the US riding in on a big white stallion saving the day, is from a bygone era.

We invaded Afghansitan b/c the sons-of-bitches who ran the place were defending terrorists who attacked us; when we asked them to turn the guys over for justice, they very famously and loudly told us to **** off.

Quote:

and we have had a history of coming to the aid of nations who need it - both in terms of financial largesse and aid (nobody gives away nearly as much in foreign aid as we do) and in military terms (ask, say, Libyans, if they like us or not).

That's a falsehood. The US is constantly at the bottom or near the bottom of the list for first world countries. Jimmy Carter said it - "the US is the stingiest country in the world".

We had no solid information as to where he had gone after Tora Bora. I could care less what the NYT reported. Not only that, but the battle of Tora Bora took place from December 12-15, 2001 - over two months after the date of our invasion.

For any German to be making such statements about America, well. I don't really have to go any further, do I?