Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

@Cycloptichorn,

Do you really believe that it was necessary to throw tow nuclear bombs upon tiny Japan, especially after 6 months of constant fire bombing of over 60 other Japanese cities?

Aside from your own countryman, there is hardly anyone who believes so.
Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't only a war crime, it was a crime against humanity.

Yes I am saying this as a German to an American who still is in denial.
I am not!

3 Replies

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

OMG, you can read, can't you?

Even your sited articles say "....the US believed that Bin Laden was hiding in the mountains of Tora Bora.

It seems you read the American news like a bible and believe everything you're told. You are certainly not alone in this though, the US is in general narrow minded and self absorbed.

OMG, you really don't know anything about the war you are criticizing, do you?

Tora Bora is IN AFGHANISTAN. How could you not know this? It's not in Pakistan. It is 10 km north of the border of Pakistan. We didn't believe he had fled to Pakistan. Our press had not reported that he had fled to Pakistan. We believed - and the evidence still shows - that AQ and Bin Laden were very well indeed in Afghanistan. So, when you say that Bin Laden and AQ had fled to Pakistan by the time we had invaded, you were totally and completely wrong. Every single thing you have said about that is wrong. It's stunning.

Now you're lashing out at me rather than actually address the valid criticisms of your case that I've made. That's not a sign of a strong argument.

Quote:

Oh yes, let's be proud of our nuclear weapons and if needed we can blow away the entire world, we just cannot win any war - not Vietnam, not Cambodia, not Afghanistan, not Iraq and so forth. It doesn't stop us though, right?

Who said I'm proud of them? It's a fact that we have them. And it's a fact that we don't use them. Your country showed no such restraint in the past, yet here you are on your high horse, denouncing the US as a bunch of fools and cowboys and bullies - all while getting your facts completely and totally wrong. I hope you have the good grace to feel embarrassed at this point.

Quote:

Gawd forbid if it ever came to a war with Russia or China, I'd rather sit in their countries than the United States.

You only say that out of ignorance, CJ. And I mean that seriously. I don't think you are a bad person at all; I think you are a nice person who means well. But this is just, a stupid thing to say.

Because we would fight to protect your country if anyone else attacked you. China and Russia never would. Thanks for spitting in our eye, though. That's real classy.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@CalamityJane,

I know that. Millions of north vietnamese died. We had relatively few. And our own survivors are in deep trouble.

What did I say that made you think I think we will treat the soldiers who have been in Afghanistan differently? Money is primarily for weapons and military building.

My own view is that boys think war is fun, for a while. Not that some women don't get into it.
I see it all as one big board game, Risk is one I remember.
Well, not entirely, but there is that element to it for decision makers.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

What the hell, of course I know where Tora Bora is. The operative word was "BELIEVE"....The Unites States believed he was there in Tora Bora (Afghanistan) - yet they did not know where in fact he was.

Slowly your getting a bit too excited here Cyclo, you don' even understand
what it's written to you.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I am sorry Cyclo, the only one who is ignorant here is you. I have not only visited many cultures and countries of this world, I read foreign press and I try to objectively analyze many newspapers.

Living in the United States doesn't make me blind however.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Because we would fight to protect your country if anyone else attacked you. China and Russia never would. Thanks for spitting in our eye, though. That's real classy.

Cycloptichorn

Yes, American exceptionalism is why the U.S. would protect Germany from attack. Also, Japan. Is there another superpower that would do that? Nyet!

0 Replies

Yes, yes, you two clap each other on your American shoulders - you're the greatest nation there is!

Sorry I have no time for such self-adulation!

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

Do you really believe that it was necessary to throw tow nuclear bombs upon tiny Japan, especially after 6 months of constant fire bombing of over 60 other Japanese cities?

Yes, it absolutely was. Yet another war that you seem to have done NO study regarding.

You don't seem to realize that the Japanese had no concept of surrender. None. They would have, and indeed were, planning on fighting to the last man. A mainland invasion of Japan would have resulted in the deaths of millions of people. Far more deaths than the bombs we dropped. The bombs stopped the war immediately and saved the lives of millions.

It was a regrettable necessity. It wasn't a necessity because we were acting in a bellicose fashion towards the Japanese, it was necessary because THEY were waging war on US and would not surrender when it became clear they were defeated. And it worked. To put it simply, I don't think you've studied this issue in depth at all.

Quote:

Aside from your own countryman, there is hardly anyone who believes so. Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't only a war crime, it was a crime against humanity.

Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was DEFINABLY not a war crime. I don't think you know what the term war crime means.

Please, for the love of god - educate yourself on topics before writing about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Preferable_to_invasion

Quote:

Yes I am saying this as a German to an American who still is in denial.
I am not!

I firmly believe you are in denial regarding the true level of atrocity perpetrated by your country. As Foofie said, paying a little blood money and building some memorials doesn't begin to cut it.

As for me and my attitudes regarding America, you are in this argument ascribing many beliefs to me that I don't hold. Yes, America has made mistakes and done horrible things. We will never be able to atone for the genocide practiced upon the native Americans who lived here when we showed up. We've made mistakes in other wars and done bad things to both our own citizens and those of other countries. We have engaged in wars (such as Iraq and Vietnam) that were strategic and moral mistakes, perpetrated by men who had visions of conquest in their minds. These are all true statements.

But the initial Afghanistan war wasn't one of those situations. And our restraint since we occupied the country has been legendary; the number of civilians killed is lower than any occupation of any country, ever. Your blanket denouncement of America is just plain wrong.

And I am an anti-war lefty, who passionately argues against all conflicts! And have done so for years, right here at A2K! So when I say that you're out of line, it's not some warmonger or cowboy who is saying that.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

I am sorry Cyclo, the only one who is ignorant here is you. I have not only visited many cultures and countries of this world, I read foreign press and I try to objectively analyze many newspapers.

Living in the United States doesn't make me blind however.

The key word is not "blind"; the key word might be "ungrateful," in my opinion.

I also like the word "ingratitude."

0 Replies

Just a brief interruption, then you can continue the discussion ....

It is interesting to me, reading this discussion about the implications of the invasion & occupation of Afghanistan, that "we" & "us" seems to almost exclusively refer to the US. It is almost as if the NATO & other allied countries are completely irrelevant in the whole equation, bit players or something ....

And really, to most US posters here (& possibly your government, too) we are considered irrelevant bit players. For those of you who sometimes express surprise, dismay, or anger at "anti-US sentiments" expressed by non-US folk here, this might give you some insight as to why.
Some of us are, quite frankly, totally fed up with being bit players in misguided US-initiated wars. It is not that we hate you, as some of you have said on other threads, it is being caught up with futile, endless indefensible wars of aggression, which quite a few of us didn't want to be involved in (as opposed to some of our governments) in the first place.

Here's a link to an article I recently posted to the Afghanistan thread .... about UK casualties in Afghanistan. Who could blame the increasing numbers of British citizens for asking, with greater persistence, "what for"?

The British forces personnel killed in Afghanistan:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2011/sep/20/british-troops-killed-in-afghanistan-interactive

I just wanted to get that off my chest.
OK, carry on now ....

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

Yes, yes, you two clap each other on your American shoulders - you're the greatest nation there is!

Sorry I have no time for such self-adulation!

Nor should you partake of it. This country has only given just you a nice home. It has given my family a nice home for 130 plus years, so I should have more gratitude. I understand your being a novitiate American.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

What the hell, of course I know where Tora Bora is. The operative word was "BELIEVE"....The Unites States believed he was there in Tora Bora (Afghanistan) - yet they did not know where in fact he was.

You wrote:

Quote:

Bin Laden escaped to Pakistan after 9/11 - even the NYTimes reported about it then. Bush still invaded Afghanistan hoping to emerge as the big warrior. Remember his saying that "we'll go in there and out in 3 months".

The NYT did NOT report that Bin Laden had escaped to Pakistan before we invaded Afghanistan. Al Qaeda certainly had not. When we attacked them in Afghanistan, they had training bases full of people.

What you wrote up there was incorrect. No country in the world believed that AQ and Bin Laden had already escaped Afghanistan by the time we attacked.

Quote:

Slowly your getting a bit too excited here Cyclo, you don' even understand
what it's written to you.

Oh yeah, one of us here is getting confused and making inaccurate statements all right Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Educating myself? Hah, even Einstein thought it was a war crime and crime against humanity - reading from your source.

Then again, foreigners are all a bunch of buffoons.

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Just a brief interruption, then you can continue the discussion ....

It is interesting to me, reading this discussion about the implications of the invasion & occupation of Afghanistan, that "we" & "us" seems to almost exclusively refer to the US. It is almost as if the NATO & other allied countries are completely irrelevant in the whole equation, bit players or something ....

And really, to most US posters here (& possibly your government, too) we are considered irrelevant bit players. For those of you who sometimes express surprise, dismay, or anger at "anti-US sentiments" expressed by non-US folk here, this might give you some insight as to why.

I almost included a couple lines about how the whole world supported what we did in Afghanistan - at least, at first.

Quote:

Some of us are, quite frankly, totally fed up with being bit players in misguided US wars. It is not that we hate you, as some of you have said on other threads, it is being caught up with futile, endless indefensible wars of aggression, which quite a few of us didn't want to be involved in (as opposed to some of our governments) in the first place.

How many wars are we talking about, exactly? Iraq, gotcha. Which other one?

Keep in mind that I agree that we should have left Afghanistan less than a year after arrival.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

Educating myself? Hah, even Einstein thought it was a war crime and crime against humanity - reading from your source.

This doesn't respond at all to what I said.

Regarding the dropping of the bomb, do you just ignore the fact that an invasion of Japan would have resulted in millions of casualties? Just don't believe that it's true? Or just don't want to address it, as that fact is pernicious to your argument? Please be honest.

Quote:

Then again, foreigners are all a bunch of buffoons.

I haven't said that, either. Nothing that I wrote can even been mistakenly construed to imply that I think this. However, you have felt perfectly justified in painting America and Americans with a very broad brush. How do you justify engaging in the same behavior that you are falsely accusing me of?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

CalamityJane wrote:

Yes, yes, you two clap each other on your American shoulders - you're the greatest nation there is!

Sorry I have no time for such self-adulation!

Nor should you partake of it. This country has only given just you a nice home. It has given my family a nice home for 130 plus years, so I should have more gratitude. I understand your being a novitiate American.

You know, Foofie, if I hadn't worked hard to have a nice home, I'd be out on the streets. The United States granted me a visa to stay, that's all. Everything else is my accomplishment, not "this country's pittance".

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Also, the Soviets were coming into the war, and if they fought against Japan for any length of time I've read that they would have likely wanted some territory for their efforts. Especially since in the early 20th century they lost to Japan in the Russo-Japanese war. So, to maintain Japan's post war integrity, and not set up the stage for a future war, to win back territory lost to the Soviets, it was very efficacious to end the war post haste (boom, boom).

And, let's not forget the atrocities that Japan was wreaking on China, what with biological warfare on Manchuria.

Isn't it interesting that both the Nazis, and the Japanese, subscribed to a mythology of racial superiority? Somehow, I think it was imperative to end that war quickly, since if men had to go from the European theatre to the Pacific theatre, to finish the Pacific War, then morale would have suffered, not just amongst the soldiers, but the families at home.

In effect, I discount the analysis of someone who did not have a proverbial dog in that race. Let's remember in 1946 the war in Germany was over, and Germans were already learning that if they were occupied by American GI's, they were being treated much nicer than if they were occupied by the Soviets. Even the Brits were standoffish, compared to the American GI's.

Talk of ingratitude - my opinion only.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Afghanistan (I didn't support the invasion from the word "go" though I know others did), Iraq, Vietnam .....

But really, the point I was trying to make, it's the attitude to "US allies" on threads like this which kinda offends .....

Many of you treat these US-initiated wars as if they were almost entirely about US internal politics & little else.

4 Replies

@CalamityJane,

Great. Germany's loss is the United States' gain.

0 Replies

@msolga,

If you doubt the benefits of liberal intervention look at Kosovo and Sierra Leone. It can be a great force for good, unfortunately Bush has pissed all over that. Iraq was wrong, and Afghanistan was half arsed from the start. If it had been done right from the beginning, with plenty of investment, we would have been out of there years ago. I always thought we should do something about Afghanistan long before 9/11.

3 Replies

Can we just !/$$!?$?! leave now?

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