15
   

A better understanding of Antisemitism

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 04:22 am

I find it hard to believe that modern haters of Jews
think that Jews really drink blood.

That is just not believable.





David
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 09:47 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
The next main factor was that the Diaspora had to deal with being a minority in many places where the major religion was Christianity (which became the official religion of the Roman empire shortly after the whole scattering the Jews thing they did), a religion whose narrative included the claim that the Jews convinced the Romans to kill one of their gods.


I want to expound on this part because I really think this is a huge part of it and I forgot to mention the "blood curse". The Bible story goes:

1) Jesus attacked the religious establishment (taking a whip to the money-lenders in the temple).

2) The establishment then turned him over to the Romans to have them kill him (because he declared himself "King of the Jews").

3) Pilate did not want to kill him, finding no "fault" in him, and tried to have him pardoned but the Jews chose to pardon a common criminal instead (in the yearly pardon ritual).

4) Pilate washed his hands of the responsibility and the Jews reportedly shouted "His blood be on us, and on our children!"

This legend has been used for centuries now to justify discrimination against Jews and is one reason why Jews are still sensitive to the "killed our Lord" claims to this day.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:33 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Then later in the middle ages, a Pope decreed they must wear distinctive clothing to identify them and the first of the "blood libel" (accusing Jews of consuming the blood of Christian babies) began and this segued into modern Anti-Semitism.


To verify this: during the 4th Lateran Council, the Canons 68 and 69 were about that Jews and Moslems should wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians. The later Papal Bull by Pope Alexander IV about this, however, was only valid locally in the Papal State.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 01:26 pm
Quote:
The next main factor was that the Diaspora had to deal with being a minority in many places where the major religion was Christianity (which became the official religion of the Roman empire shortly after the whole scattering the Jews thing they did),


This is inaccurate. Cyrus ended the "Babylonian Captivity" at the beginning of the 6th century BCE, but most Jews did not return to Palestine. Some remained in Mesopotamia, some moved on to Syria (and this is possibly the origin of confessional Judaism among the Aramaeans, although no one can say with certainty), and some moved beyond Palestine to Egypt where a great many became mercenary troops acting as a sort of police force for the Persians. Scholars consider that the disaposra begtins in the 6th century BCE and continues thereafter for centuries.

The Alexandrine conquest did not affect the Jewish population of Palestine, as they did not participate in the Persian resistance, which was feeble and ineffective. Judas Macabee lead a semi-successful revolt against the Hellenistic Seleucid empire circa 165 BCE, which lead to some further migration, but as they became a semi-independent client state as a result of the revolt, there was little reason for them to leave. Keep in mind that a majority of the Jews who had been removed from Palestine during the Babylonian captivity had never returned.

The animus against Jews in the Hellenistic world predates the rise of Christianity. Correspondence of the emperor Claudius survives in which he complains with some asperity about the strife between Jews and Greeks in Alexandria in Egypt, both of which communities apparently sent memorials to the emperor to complain about the other community. This was considerably less than 20 years after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, and well before christianity had spread through the Hellenistic world. The rebellion of the Zealots which was crushed by Titus (circa 70 CE) lead to the expulsion of some Jews, but those who had taken no part suffered no penalties. Many of those who had been exiled were allowed to return by the emperor Hadrian in the second decade of the second century. However, he thought better of his generosity, and removed many of those believed to be insurrectionists to North Africa. There was another Jewish uprising in the third decade of the second century (all of these can be provided accurate dates with a little research). The rebellion waxed and waned into the fourth decade, and when it was finally crushed, Hadrian sold many of the Jews into slavery, mostly in North Africa.

All of these events took place well before christianity had any influence in the Roman Empire. The Jewish diaspora can be taken to have lasted between about 600 BCE and roughly 140 CE, and it had nothing to do with christianity. It had a great deal to do with pig-headed Jewish zealots. The success of Judas Maccabee may have left them with the erroneous belief that they could succeed against the Romans as they had against the Hellenistic Seleucids--a fatal error if true. Often, the early persecution of christians arose because they were seen as just another sect of Judaism

Christianity was not officially tolerated in the Roman Empire until the 4th century CE. Contrary to christian propaganda, there is no evidence that Constantine ever became a christian, but he ended the persecution of christians, even before he made himself emperor. He convened the Council of Nicea to create a unified christian church (325 CE), but he did so for political reasons, and the evidence is that he neither understood no showed any interest in the theological controversies.

His sons--Constantine II, Constantius and Constans--became embroiled in church controversies, unsuccessfully attempting to reconcile the split between the Bishop of Rome and the Catholics, and the Orthodx, and the Arians. Constantius' attempts to reconcile the Arians and the rest of the church were a failure. His successor, Julian, is known to the christians as Julian the Apostate, because he was unashamedly pagan.

I do not dispute for a moment the "blood libel" issue, but it is important to realize the the Jewish Diaspora really had nothing to do with christianity, that it took place over centuries, and well before christinaity rose to prominence, and that subsequently, the Jews were the hapless victims of an obsessive christian hatred. They were already well spread throughout southwest Asia, Africa and Europe before that particularly virulent bigotry took hold.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 02:56 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Quote:
The next main factor was that the Diaspora had to deal with being a minority in many places where the major religion was Christianity (which became the official religion of the Roman empire shortly after the whole scattering the Jews thing they did),


This is inaccurate.


Perhaps, but nothing in your text even tries to establishes as much.

Quote:
I do not dispute for a moment the "blood libel" issue, but it is important to realize the the Jewish Diaspora really had nothing to do with christianity, that it took place over centuries, and well before christinaity rose to prominence, and that subsequently, the Jews were the hapless victims of an obsessive christian hatred.


I did not claim that the Jewish Diaspora (the scattering) was a result of Christianity at all. I said that the Jewish Diaspora suffered persecution from Christianity after-the-fact just like you are saying. I think you may have misread my post, could you point out where I say that the Diaspora being a result of Christianity (or alternately correct your misrepresentation of my post)? If you read even the portion you quote from me I clearly state that Christianity's rise came "after" the Diaspora.

They weren't scattered by the Christians (the Roman empire did not become largely Christian till afterwards) but many ended up in majority-Christian lands (in Europe) where the majority religion subsequently began to persecute them.

Quote:
They were already well spread throughout southwest Asia, Africa and Europe before that particularly virulent bigotry took hold.


Just like I said. The majority were in Asia but I focused on the discrimination they suffered from Christians in Europe as the source of much of the modern anti-semitism, not as the cause of the Diaspora.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 08:46 pm
I should have edited more. You wrote:

Quote:
. . . the major religion was Christianity (which became the official religion of the Roman empire shortly after the whole scattering the Jews thing they did),


There was no temporal, coincidental relationship between the Jewish diaspora and the adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the empire. The diaspora began just after 600 BCE, it ended in the first half of the second century when Hadrian removed the last of the Jews from Palestine who would be removed (some very few remained). Christianity became the state religion of Rome in the late 4th century CE--more than 300 years later. Perhaps we have different ideas of what "soon after" would mean--i don't take three centuries to be soon after any event.

So, my post had two points--one to deny that Christinaity became the state religion of Rome soon after the diaspora ended. The second to point out that the disapora played out over a period of more than 700 years, and that animus toward the Jews arose during that period, and long before Christianity arose. In fact, being seen in the Hellenistic world and the empire as a sect of Judaism, Christianity was early treated with the same mistrust and contempt that Judaism was. I don't know that anyone can say with any certainty just why strife arose between Jews and their neighbors, but i suspect that it was because they were monotheists among polytheists. After all a Roman could view Ares as cognate with Mars, and so also for the German Wotan or the British Nodens. But the Jews insisted that there was only one god, and that those who did not recognize that god were pagans, infidels. There were certainly other monotheists around, but the Jews and Christians are the only ones of whom i know who would not pay public lip service to state religion. The Roman empire tolerated all religions, but it also required all people in the empire to, on an occasional basis (usually about once a year) to participate in the state religion. Go down to the market, buy a chicken, give it to the priests at the temple, and they'll slaughter it and tell your fortune by reading the entrails (and probably have chicken for dinner that night). The Jews and the Christians both made a public issue of not participating.

So, at any rate, it is inaccurate that Christianity became the state religion of Rome "shortly after" the disapora had taken place.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2012 08:56 pm
Excuse me . . . two hundred plus years, not three hundred. I still don't consider that "soon after." Walter has mentioned the fourth Lateran council--that was in the 13th century. I would say that the systematic persecution of Jews in Christian Europe only begins after about 1000 CE. The Church was still trying to convert Europeans, i doubt they had much interest in Jews at that time.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Wed 15 Feb, 2012 06:32 pm
I have heard from people that some Jewish people think that Jesus was not the son of God but rather a prophet. I myself think that he was made up. I am just curious what the Jewish community may think about it.
Was there a Jesus type of person [maybe an ethicist] that was put to death in a similar way that the bible says? Maybe a Jewish myth?
JoeBruno
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2012 10:35 pm
@reasoning logic,
Actually, the Jewish God does not approve of slavery or usury.
http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/pg82404

The idea that Jews are more successful economically is a myth.
Of the 10 wealthiest families in the USA, none are Jews.

Examples:
Kennedys
Rockefellers
Mellons
DuPont
Ross Perot
Donald Trump
The two wealthiest men on Earth are non-Jews, one a Mexican Catholic and the other a Greek Orthodox Christian.
JoeBruno
 
  2  
Sat 18 Feb, 2012 10:41 pm
@reasoning logic,
Jews do not recognize Jesus as their messiah or as a prophet.He does not fit the description of the Messiah predicted in the Old Testament.The Jewish prophets
are listed in the Old Testament under the names of their books.

Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Son of God.According to Judaism, there is only one divine being-God Himself.

The death of Jesus was described in the New Testament, which is Christian gospel only. Jews do not recognize it as scripture or read it.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 Feb, 2012 05:08 am
@JoeBruno,
Quote:
Actually, the Jewish God does not approve of slavery or usury.
http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/pg82404


Thank you for your reply. I do not see how anyone could come to that conclusion unless they were Christian or Jewish.

It seems that the link you provided picks and chooses what it wants the readers to see, When I read "Exodus 21:4" I come to the conclusion "the slave has no choice but to remain a slave if he loves his family.

Quote:
Voluntary Permanent Hebrew Servants
Now it was not uncommon for a temporary indentured servant to want to STAY in service to his or her master (they were not treated harshly like slaves in the NWS version of slavery as you will soon see), and the Bible also offered guidelines for the treatment of these types of servants who became part of the family:


Exodus 21:5-6
But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,' then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently



With this next quote I am not sure if it makes a case for your God not supporting slavery.

Quote:
Permanent "Pagan" Servants
The ancient Hebrews did have permanent slaves obtained from the non-Jewish nations that surrounded them. They came into their possession as the result of military conquests:


Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have — you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession


Quote:
The idea that Jews are more successful economically is a myth.
Of the 10 wealthiest families in the USA, none are Jews.

Examples:
Kennedys
Rockefellers
Mellons
DuPont
Ross Perot
Donald Trump
The two wealthiest men on Earth are non-Jews, one a Mexican Catholic and the other a Greek Orthodox Christian.



I can only guess that you can look these things up in so many different ways by families, by people, by wealth in the US or in the Swiss banks, I would think that there are many ways to evaluate the wealth.
I am not sure that anyone is going to dispute that but what I would think the antisemitic would say is that Jews were very clever and they engaged in high profit exchanges that made people feel like they were taken advantage of.

In my culture when a person engages in a shady deal or one that seems not ethical the person is sometimes referred to as a Jew.
Now days we are starting to call it the American way.

This is old "2000" and I do not know how factual this may be but I figured if it was incorrect that someone would point it out. If this is true would the percentage of Jews be where you think that they should be.


Among the richest 75 Americans are the following Jewish businessmen:
2) Lawrence Ellison,
5) Gordon Moore,
7) Steven Ballmer,
13) Michael Dell,
14) Sumner Redstone,
18) Harry Samueli,
41) Thomas Pritzker,
42) Robert Pritzker,
43) Eli Broad,
44) George Soros,
44) Samuel Newhouse,
44) Donald Newhouse,
51) Alfred Lerner,
53) Carl Icahn,
56) Maurice Greenberg,
59) Edgar Bronfman,
61) Marvin Davis,
61) Michael Bloomberg,
61) Walter Annenberg,
66) Leonard Lauder,
70) Ronald Perelman,
70) David Geffen,
73) Gary Winnick,
73) Bernard Marcus, &
73) Ronald Lauder.






JoeBruno
 
  2  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:00 pm
@reasoning logic,
None of your quotes say that God approves of slavery.Regulating it, as the Torah does, is not same as approving it.Moreover, the first abolitionists were traditional Christians.

Why did you post a list of supposedly rich Jews if you don't know if it's accurate or not?????????????

You can easily look up each one on the Internet to see if the claim about him is true.Do your homework before you spam this forum with propaganda.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:38 pm
@JoeBruno,
Quote:
None of your quotes say that God approves of slavery.Regulating it, as the Torah does, is not same as approving it.[/quote

It is just a conclusion that I came to, I can only guess at it.
Do you have rules in your house and do people have to abide by your rules? I can only guess you regulate things you approve of in your home and if you do not approve of them you will let people know and there will be no need to regulate things that you disapprove of?

[quote] the first abolitionists were traditional Christians.


That is what I hear from many people but the first source that I have read the denouncing of slavery in recorded history was done by a Jewish sect therapeutae.

Quote:
Why did you post a list of supposedly rich Jews if you don't know if it's accurate or not?????????????


Not many things that I share are empirical.

Quote:
You can easily look up each one on the Internet to see if the claim about him is true.Do your homework before you spam this forum with propaganda.


I did look up a few and they appeared to be accurate. If I found supporting evidence for all of them could there be a possibility that one or some could still be wrong? I would think so
You are more than welcome to look them up and prove that they are wrong if you would like.


0 Replies
 
JoeBruno
 
  1  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:49 pm
@reasoning logic,
"I do not see how anyone could come to that conclusion unless they were Christian or Jewish."

And just what does that mean?The fact that you cannot see something does not mean it is not there.Why don't you deal with the written evidence instead of just foisting your personal impressions on us and claiming they are accurate?

Did God himself have slaves?No.The Hebrew bible attempts to regulate slavery.
That is not the same as approving it.In ancient times, the "slavery" was more an indentured servitude, which was a contract between the servant and the master.
This practice was also common in Europe and it existed in the USA prior to 1867.
0 Replies
 
JoeBruno
 
  0  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:54 pm
@reasoning logic,
Again, you are misreading it.The bible does not say"Slavery is good"-go out and practice it. It attempts to regulate an existing practice.

We have laws that regulate alcoholic beverages and tobacco use, but we also have laws that severely restrict the use of these things, as doctors tell us they are a danger to our health.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 09:02 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
In my culture when a person engages in a shady deal or one that seems not ethical the person is sometimes referred to as a Jew.

Just what is "your culture"?

What do you think of using the word "Jew" in that way?
JoeBruno
 
  -1  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 09:07 pm
@reasoning logic,
2) Lawrence Ellison-He was raised by Reform Jews,but his Father was Italian.
Under Jewish law, he is a Jew only if His Mother is Jewish or he converted to Judaism.The article is silent on that question.
5) Gordon Moore,-His biography does not mention his religion or ethnic background at all.If he is a Jew, he is the first one I've ever seen named "Moore".
7) Steven Ballmer,-Has Jewish Mother, so he is Jewish
13) Michael Dell,-Jewish
14) Sumner Redstone-Jewish,
18) Harry Samueli-Jewish,
41) Thomas Pritzker-Has some Jews in his ancestry, but there is no indication
that his Mother was a Jew, so results inconclusive.,
42) Robert Pritzker-Has some Jews in his ancestry, but there is no indication
that his Mother was a Jew, so results inconclusive.,,
43) Eli Broad,
44) George Soros,
44) Samuel Newhouse,
44) Donald Newhouse,
51) Alfred Lerner,
53) Carl Icahn,
56) Maurice Greenberg,
59) Edgar Bronfman,
61) Marvin Davis,
61) Michael Bloomberg,
61) Walter Annenberg,
66) Leonard Lauder,
70) Ronald Perelman,
70) David Geffen,
73) Gary Winnick,
73) Bernard Marcus, &
73) Ronald Lauder.
0 Replies
 
JoeBruno
 
  0  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 10:49 pm
@reasoning logic,
Eli Broad-Jewish
,
44)
George
Soros,-Jewish
44) Samuel Newhouse-Newhouse attended the Horace Mann School in New York City. He has an estimated net worth of $6.6 billion, and he was ranked the 47th richest American by Forbes Magazine in 2011. [2]
,
44) Donald Newhouse,
51) Alfred Lerner,
53) Carl
Icahn-no mention of religion of Mother-inconclusive
56) Maurice Greenberg,
59) Edgar Bronfman,
61) Marvin
Davis,-nothing in his biography on Religion or ethnicity
61) Michael Bloomberg,
61) Walter Annenberg,
66)

Leonard
Lauder,-Jewish
70) Ronald Perelman,
70) David
Geffen,-Jewish
73) Gary Winnick-bio has nothing on his religion or ethnic backgrounds

,
73) Bernard Marcus,-Jewish
&


0 Replies
 
JoeBruno
 
  -1  
Mon 20 Feb, 2012 10:51 pm
@firefly,
In my culture when a person engages in a shady deal or one that seems not ethical the person is sometimes referred to as a Jew.

"Just what is "your culture"?"

Bruno answers:White trash.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 21 Feb, 2012 01:53 am
@JoeBruno,
Quote:
"Just what is "your culture"?"

Bruno answers:White trash.


I guess that could be one way of being Christian like and leading someone to the lord.

If I read the bible as I read any other book slavery is easy to see, it is "only" when I talk to Christians that I hear slavery is not admired by God. From what I see slavery is a part of the psychology of God. I think slavery may have come from the period around the old kingdom of Egypt when the king thought he was our living God.
 

Related Topics

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, EVERYONE! - Discussion by OmSigDAVID
WIND AND WATER - Discussion by Setanta
Who ordered the construction of the Berlin Wall? - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
True version of Vlad Dracula, 15'th century - Discussion by gungasnake
ONE SMALL STEP . . . - Discussion by Setanta
History of Gun Control - Discussion by gungasnake
Where did our notion of a 'scholar' come from? - Discussion by TuringEquivalent
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 06/18/2024 at 10:41:01