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A better understanding of Antisemitism

 
 
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 02:38 pm
I have an interest in the understanding of human behavior and in my quest for understanding the origins of antisemitism I have come to the conclusion that many Jewish people are well educated and have been for 1,000's of years, with this being so they seem to have had an economic advantage over many people.
Many Jews [Not all}seem to have practiced business the same way that non- Jews practiced business {sociopathically and less sociopathically} but with a much higher success rate than many non Jewish people.

When these Jews found themselves doing very well they also found themselves being hated by some people in the same professions, other people thought that they had been taken advantage of and many people have been fed propaganda that may have been true and some that was false, This seems to be what sparked a lot of hate.

In my opinion it does seem that some Jews just like non Jews have indulged in sociopathic or unethical business practices on a very large scale and for a very long time, we can find these practices in the old testament and throughout history in such things as slave trade and usury.
Keep in mind that the Jews were not the only people engaging in such practices and it does seem that their God allows for such practices, What is our excuse?

I would like to hear from many others on this subject because this is how I learn.
 
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 02:57 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
with such things as slave trade and usury


I will let a better historian (like Setanta) give you the details, but Jews had little to do with the slave trade. They also ended up in usury (banking, loans) because The Church and Islam forbid their own followers from doing such professions. Many Jews ended up in mercantile trades because they were constantly forbidden from owning land suitable for farming. The reason you have so many Jews becoming things like doctors, lawyers, merchants and bankers is because these were trades that could easily be practiced in a new location if forced out of a homeland. There is also a theory that Jews excel in academics because all the Jews not smart enough to outwit or out maneuver their enemies were killed and that left a more intelligent gene pool to reproduce. Jews were a convenient scapegoat for centuries because they were not Christian and not followers of Islam, and often in the minority. It's easy to kill those who are not like you and are misunderstood. The Church and the aristocracy often spread rumors of Jews doing evil deeds in order to steal their property or not pay back debts they owed the banks or Jewish lenders. Do a little more research and you will find a lot on this topic.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 03:23 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
The Church and Islam forbid their own followers from doing such professions. Many Jews ended up in mercantile trades because they were constantly forbidden from owning land suitable for farming.


This does seem to be the the case in parts of history.

Quote:
The reason you have so many Jews becoming things like doctors, lawyers, merchants and bankers is because these were trades that could easily be practiced in a new location if forced out of a homeland.


I would think that it may have had more to do with their education.

Quote:
Jews were a convenient scapegoat for centuries because they were not Christian and not followers of Islam, and often in the minority.It's easy to kill those who are not like you and are misunderstood.



This does seem to be true.


Quote:
The Church and the aristocracy often spread rumors of Jews doing evil deeds in order to steal their property or not pay back debts they owed the banks or Jewish lenders. Do a little more research and you will find a lot on this topic.


This seems as it could be true as well.

Quote:
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 03:44 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I would think that it may have had more to do with their education.


To be a pious Jew it was important to be able to read, thus an emphasis on education, but education was not for earning money early on in their history. Imagine you live in a world where most people make a living by farming and yet you are forbidden in most places to own land; or if you do own land you might lose it quickly to people who can take it from you without punishment. What do you do? You put your trade in your head - thus knowledge becomes your greatest asset. You can live anywhere and have a way to make money. You can pack up your books and run to a safe place. The only way someone can steal your profession is by killing you. If you look back into history you will see Jews start to transition to a knowledge based society from an agricultural based society not so much because they want to, but because they are forced to.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 04:03 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
Imagine you live in a world where most people make a living by farming and yet you are forbidden in most places to own land;


Maybe I have it wrong but the reason that they were forbidden to own land was because they were very well educated and able to out perform others and if that is the case then many of them should have already acquired wealth {gold, ships and so forth}For hundreds if not thousands of years before laws were in place forbidding them to own property and being unable to have certain occupations. I do realize that not all Jews were intellectually identical and the ones who were more intellectually challenged probably did have it harder.

Quote:
If you look back into history you will see Jews start to transition to a knowledge based society from an agricultural based society not so much because they want to, but because they are forced to.


I will look into this and see what I can come up with. Not that I am doubting it because I think that every race was an agricultural based society or at least a hunting gathering society at some point in time, regardless if they were slave owners or not.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 04:30 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
If you look back into history you will see Jews start to transition to a knowledge based society from an agricultural based society not so much because they want to, but because they are forced to.


I do remember reading in the old testament about the virtuous woman and her slaves. She seem to be a very intelligent woman that was compared to a merchant ship. I wonder if she had her slaves carry the bushels of grapes to the merchant ship she owned and traded her grapes for other goods.
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 04:47 pm
@reasoning logic,
The bible is very pro-slavery. Jesus didn't have a problem with it. I was talking more about slavery in the last few centuries, mostly in America. There is a myth that Jews ran the slave trade from Africa to America, but it was mostly white Christian Europeans working with whites and blacks in Africa.
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 05:21 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Maybe I have it wrong but the reason that they were forbidden to own land was because they were very well educated and able to out perform others and if that is the case then many of them should have already acquired wealth {gold, ships and so forth}For hundreds if not thousands of years before laws were in place forbidding them to own property and being unable to have certain occupations. I do realize that not all Jews were intellectually identical and the ones who were more intellectually challenged probably did have it harder.


Jews started as tribal herding people in the Middle East and then were pushed about to other parts of the world depending on wars, local conflicts and the whims of various rulers. The Church made problems worse for Jews by blaming them for the death of Jesus, despite the Romans doing the deed. As Jews moved into Europe, they were seen as the outsiders with strange ways. People were afraid they would "ruin the neighborhood" because Christians believed they carried the sin of killing Jesus. Jews evolved into merchants, trade people and business men about this time period. There were still Jewish peasants, plenty eventually lived in Eastern Europe and Spain, but since all male Jews were taught to read their religious books they had the option of also learning other trades and not being tied to the hard life of working land. In the meantime, the Church never wanted its followers to be able to read the actual bible and even killed men who tried to make religious books accessible to the common people. It was impossible to be scholar if you couldn't read aramaic, hebrew, latin or greek, since all the great books of that time were written in those languages. Jews wanted their (male) children to learn all those languages to understand, interpret and debate their own religion. You got into heaven by being a scholar. I don't think the idea of Jews being somehow intellectually superior came about until much later, even post WWII. Mostly Jews were portrayed as greedy, sneaky and out to hurt Christians. They were a stand in for Satan. Land ownership was always a powerful thing and no one wanted to give people they didn't trust.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 05:24 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
The bible is very pro-slavery. Jesus didn't have a problem with it. I was talking more about slavery in the last few centuries, mostly in America. There is a myth that Jews ran the slave trade from Africa to America, but it was mostly white Christian Europeans working with whites and blacks in Africa.




Thank you for this info, this is the type of info that I am trying to verify because I truly do not know the truth, there is so much information out there for either side of the coin so to speak, one can easily be mislead.

Do you know if Jews owned the ships that carried any of these slaves to America?
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 05:34 pm
@reasoning logic,
You can easily search for information about the bible and slavery. Mostly the bible says you should be nice to your slaves and not beat them unless they deserve it.

Jews really didn't have much to do with the American slave trade and that is well documented. It took well-connected and powerful men to run that show. If Jews owned slave ships I would be surprised. Jews did not have that sort of power. I had to look it up and it appears mostly the British. French, Spanish and the Dutch owned the majority of the ships.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_ship
Sadly, when I looked this up an anti-semitic site came up with all sorts of nasty propaganda, but the links underneath were much more true to history - and we do know a lot about this period.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 05:35 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
Jews started as tribal herding people in the Middle East and then were pushed about to other parts of the world depending on wars, local conflicts and the whims of various rulers.


From what I have read it was not uncommon for Jews to have slaves in their household BC, if this is true I would think that it would have gave them more leisure time than people without slaves therefore they would have been able to educate themselves.
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 05:40 pm
@reasoning logic,
Everyone who could manage it had slaves back then. They were the spoils of war and trade. Jews did not have any monopoly on it. Jews were often slaves themselves (look up The Babylonian Captivity). Romans were really good at slavery. I doubt Jews were doing much reading at this time, the bible was originally an oral history and they probably were just telling the stories verbally. Maybe they developed really good memories because of it, but I doubt you would find many books lying around their nomadic tents.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 06:15 pm
@reasoning logic,
U have terrible -- really bad -- punctuation.

Don 't u even TRY to get it right ??





David
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 06:49 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Don 't u even TRY to get it right ??


I did not care enough when I was in school to learn it correctly and now that I am older I do care but I am not going to spend a lot of time trying to learn it because I am too old and I am able to communicate well enough to hold a conversation.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 06:54 pm
@reasoning logic,
DAVID wrote:
Don 't u even TRY to get it right ??

reasoning logic wrote:
I did not care enough when I was in school to learn it correctly
and now that I am older I do care but I am not going to spend a lot
of time trying to learn it because I am to old and I am able to
communicate well enough to hold a conversation.
Its gross n crude to open a parenthetical remark
with a bracket " [ " and then to close it with a French Brace " } ".
That bespeaks a shockingly poorly disorganized mind.
Proper punctuation supports reasoning LOGICALLY.

Doing it correctly is not hard; almost intuitive.




David
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 07:03 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Like I said Dave I am able to communicate regardless and my punctuation is not the subject of this thread. Be glad if you learned it correctly in school.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 07:11 pm
@Green Witch,
Thank you Green Witch you have cleared up some things that I did not know and gave me food for thought. Smile
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 07:13 pm
@reasoning logic,
It might have taken about 10 minutes
to learn punctuation in school. I 'm glad.





David
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 09:20 pm
@reasoning logic,
You do just fine, RL. At least you write out your words.
Green Witch
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 09:36 pm
@JLNobody,
I agree, and reading back on some of what I wrote I could be accused of poor grammar as well. That's what happens when I cook and type at the same time. I should take the computer out of the kitchen. I assumed RL was ESL but even if he is not, he is perfectly understandable.
 

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