15
   

A better understanding of Antisemitism

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 08:27 am

Is Antisemitism on the rise?

firefly
 
  2  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 02:56 pm
@reasoning logic,
I fail to understand what point you are trying to make, or what you are purportedly trying to understand about anti-Semitism.

In this thread, you have been given some rather comprehensive historical explanations for the development and persistence of anti-Semitic attitudes, beliefs, and stereotypes that should have increased your understanding regarding the origins of such prejudice.

Your own direct contact with Jewish people, and your knowledge of the community involvements of Jewish people, seems nil, and you additionally fail to understand the diversity within Judaism which runs the gamut from the ultra Orthodox to secular non-religious Jews. For that reason, you quite erroneously seem to regard Jews as some isolated, insular, and homogeneous, group and, consequently, your solution to the problem of anti-Semitism, if I understand you correctly, is that Jews need to do better PR work by performing more acts of charity in the community.
That Jewish organizations, groups, and individuals, are already quite involved in philanthropic and charitable activities that benefit the entire community, and not just their own group, seems to have escaped your awareness. Are you really unaware of national social agencies, like Jewish Community Services, which functions in much the same way as Catholic Charities, and which provide a wide range of social and charitable services to to the entire community, regardless of religion or race or ethnicity?

It would seem to me that if you are genuinely seeking a greater personal understanding of anti-Semitism, you should start by examining some of the stereotyped views you yourself hold, and how and why you arrived at those opinions. It might also help you to learn more about the considerable diversity within Judaism because, frankly, you don't seem to know much about Jews.

I previously suggested that you look at the Web site of the Anti-Defamation League, an organization specifically dedicated to recognizing anti-Semitism, as well as bigotry and discrimination toward other groups, and to combating it in a variety of ways. You seemingly dismissed that suggestion for reasons that were unclear, but you then posted a video regarding the results of an ADL poll. Again, I would suggest to you that you do go to the ADL Web site and avail yourself of a great deal of current information on this topic in terms of anti-Semitism internationally as well as in the United States.

The first step in trying to understand something is to become aware of how much you do not know. I think several posters here have gone to considerable lengths to help you with that. I've learned a great deal from reading their posts and I hope you have too.

The next step is a process of self-education and there is no one who can do that for you. You are missing a great deal of factual information which can only be remedied by doing some considerable reading on your part. And you might consider making attempts to broaden your own range of social and community contacts so that you have an opportunity to interact with those you want to understand better or learn more about.

Whether anti-Semitism in the U.S. has recently increased by a few percentage points is really irrelevant. It doesn't tell you much at all. A certain percentage of people will always hold prejudicial and discriminatory attitudes toward some group or other, that's what bigotry and scapegoating is all about. And, in difficult economic times, those numbers will go up a little.

If you really want a better understanding of anti-Semitism, the place to start is with yourself.

reasoning logic
 
  2  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 03:29 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I fail to understand what point you are trying to make, or what you are purportedly trying to understand about anti-Semitism.


Wow did you not read my reply to you? I said that my main interest is in how others [sociopaths and non sociopaths] respond to such sociopathic behavior. There are so many problems in this world and Antisemitism is just one of them.

Quote:
Your own direct contact with Jewish people, and your knowledge of the community involvements of Jewish people, seems nil, and you additionally fail to understand the diversity within Judaism which runs the gamut from the ultra Orthodox to secular non-religious Jews.


Wow what can I say other than you do not know me and that you speak in absolutes about things you do not know about me. You say that I fail to understand the diversity within Judaism which runs the gamut from the ultra Orthodox to secular non-religious Jew.

The way that I understand diversity is that all people are different no two people are identical nor can people in a group agree on all issues.

Just like in any other group of people you have different behaviors coming from different people. Non of us are all bad nor all good.


Quote:
you then posted a video regarding the results of an ADL poll. Again, I would suggest to you that you do go to the ADL Web site and avail yourself of a great deal of current information on this topic in terms of anti-Semitism internationally as well as in the United States.


I take it you did not even bother to watch the other video.


Quote:
That Jewish organizations, groups, and individuals, are already quite involved in philanthropic and charitable activities that benefit the entire community, and not just their own group, seems to have escaped your awareness. Are you really unaware of national social agencies, like Jewish Community Services, which functions in much the same way as Catholic Charities, and which provide a wide range of social and charitable services to to the entire community, regardless of religion or race or ethnicity?


If you will stop making assumptions about what I know or do not know I will kindly reply
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 04:20 pm
@reasoning logic,
My assumptions about your thinking are based on the statements you yourself have made in this thread.

Saying that no two people are alike reflects no degree of understanding on your part about Judaism, or the very real diversities within Judaism itself, nor does it even illuminate exactly who you are referring to when you talk about Jews. Which is why your statements about what you think Jews could/should do to, in effect, enhance their PR and reduce anti-Semitism, make no sense to me.
Quote:
I said that my main interest is in how others [sociopaths and non sociopaths] respond to such sociopathic behavior

Why are you calling anti-Semitism "sociopathic behavior"? Are you talking about prejudicial and discriminatory attitudes, or are you talking about overt behavioral acts, and hate crimes, like defacing or trying to bomb a synagogue?

Do you also consider racist attitudes or anti-gay attitudes "sociopathic"? Do you not think that people, who are not at all "sociopathic", can fall prey to stereotyped and bigoted attitudes simply out of ignorance? Do you not understand why certain groups might be scapegoated, through no fault of their own, and without rational basis for these attitudes?

The Anti-Defamation League reflects an organized response to anti-Semitism, which is what you are allegedly interested in, which is why I referred you to their Web site. How specific individuals respond to anti-Semitic insults, or slurs, or acts directed toward them, really is less important, partly because the problem really can't be addressed on an individual level, any more than racism can be addressed on an individual level, it really involves, and requires, a more multi-faceted approach and coordinated effort on the part of both the targeted group as well as the larger community. And, no matter how successful you are with such responses, there are likely to be a small group of bigots who will retain biased and discriminatory attitudes toward one group or another that they choose to scapegoat.

So you really haven't enlightened me regarding what you are actually trying to understand regarding this topic, or how it differs from trying to understand prejudice or discrimination or bigotry toward any other group of people.





izzythepush
 
  -1  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 04:34 pm
@firefly,
RL has a thing about sociopaths and psychopaths. He's also got an obsession with posing Godawful videos. And he likes to play tag with BillRM in winding up Spademaster, a bit like BillRM and Hawkeye.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 05:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Saying that no two people are alike reflects no degree of understanding on your part about Judaism, or the very real diversities within Judaism itself, nor does it even illuminate exactly who you are referring to when you talk about Jews.


I do not have a strong interest in knowing the different Jewish cultures out there and I would not think I would need to know the diversities within Judaism itself to comment on acts of aggression.
Jewish people are people just like any other people they have members among their groups that act out just as with any other groups of people.
Why would I need to have an in depth understanding of the diversities within Judaism itself in order to study people's reactions to Antisemitism or antisocial behaviors?

Quote:
Why are you calling anti-Semitism "sociopathic behavior"?


I recognize sociopathic behavior as a grey area instead of an absolute area of psychology that many do. I do understand that there are people that can not feel empathy nor have a conscience but there seems to be a larger grey area that I am interested in.

Quote:
Are you talking about prejudicial and discriminatory attitudes, or are you talking about overt behavioral acts, and hate crimes, like defacing or trying to bomb a synagogue?


I include what I consider all acts of antisocial behavior even though some may be more extreme than others.

Quote:
Do you also consider racist attitudes or anti-gay attitudes "sociopathic"? Do you not think that people, who are not at all "sociopathic", can fall prey to stereotyped and bigoted attitudes simply out of ignorance?


Yes this is the grey area that I am most interested in. How we can sit hear today and think to ourselves what decent people we are but yet in time we will be seen as having sociopathic behavior today as we evolve more ethically in the future.


Quote:
The Anti-Defamation League reflects an organized response to anti-Semitism, which is what you are allegedly interested in.


What I am interested in is how we, "supposedly ethical people can call Antisemitism a crime but not the working of intellectually challenged people for all of their lives and pay them very low wages. or how we can invade other countries under false pretenses.
Antisemitism is wrong but there are many more wrongs going on that need to be addressed as well.
You do seem to be one of the brightest that I have spoken to here on a2k but please keep in mind that there are other very bright people here as well but listen to the hate that they {intentionally} spit out of their mouths. I do not find it to be unheard of for very intelligent[or should I say people with good memories} to also be sociopaths. { rapist, murderers, thefts and so on..}

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 06:54 pm
Talk about very intelligent people getting it wrong at times.
Noam Chomsky July 28th 2011: Pro Israel Christian Right Most Anti-Semitic People In The World
I can see where there may be some people out there like this but Noam seems to be stereotyping the Pro Israel Christian Right.


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 07:39 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
..in order to study people's reactions to Antisemitism or antisocial behaviors

Which people's reactions to anti-Semitism? Jews who are on the receiving end of the anti-Semitism? Non-Jews who witness, or hear about, anti-Semitic statements, or attitudes, or acts? What is it you are actually curious about?
Quote:
Antisemitism is wrong but there are many more wrongs going on that need to be addressed as well.

Does anyone doubt that there are other wrongs that need to be addressed? But you're the one who started a thread about anti-Semitism, which would suggest that you wanted to focus on that issue, for whatever reason.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 07:50 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Which people's reactions to anti-Semitism? Jews who are on the receiving end of the anti-Semitism? Non-Jews who witness, or hear about, anti-Semitic statements, or attitudes, or acts? What is it you are actually curious about?


I am curious about all of it, along with how much attention is given to the subject at hand.

Did you ever give any attention to the first video that I shared?
The reason I asked is because you seem to be the type of person that would at least try it rather than thumbing it down like someone else did.
Here it is again just in case you are interested.

firefly
 
  2  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 08:58 pm
@reasoning logic,
Yes, I watched the video.

The upset and angry reactions of the people in the bakery, and their support for the two actors portraying Jews, didn't surprise me. The only thing that surprised me was that more of them didn't just walk out, although since that edited video was shot at different times, it is difficult to tell how the majority of people did react. And the one man they showed, who agreed with what the bigot was saying, didn't surprise me either.

If I were in a store where I heard an employee spouting similar bigoted and offensive things about any religious, ethnic, or racial group, my personal reaction would probably be to just walk out, unless there was something I could actually do by remaining in the situation. I think that trying to reason with a bigot is a waste of time, and just telling them off is also a waste of time. But I would not continue to patronize the business, and I would likely write a letter to the owner of the establishment telling them what I had witnessed and why I wasn't returning. And I would likely encourage others to do the same. So, I would register my disapproval regarding the offensive remarks in some way.

I don't think I learned anything from the video. Did you?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sat 11 Feb, 2012 11:44 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Yes, I watched the video.
I hope it had a good effect on your mood, Firefly.




firefly wrote:
. . . . I think that trying to reason with a bigot is a waste of time,
and just telling them off is also a waste of time.
I wonder Y u believe that.
I have argued, discussed and debated with commies, nazis, liberals,
anti-abortionists, etc. in my support of laissez faire capitalism.
Its kinda fun. Something that I enjoy doing A LOT is sitting closely
with someone whose conclusions are alien to mine and probing,
with dispassionate, meticulous analysis, how and Y his thinking
has evolved to reached the conclusions that it did.
I am magnetically drawn to observation & examination thereof.

I remain very, very interested in human mental processes.
(That is the reason that I have attempted, without success, to
identify how u came to believe that a person can possibly be
negatively affected by someone else looking pictures of her or him.
U have mentioned "right of privacy" but that is vague, diffuse, & abstract.)
From your posts, I consider u to be a logical person, Firefly
but I remain perplexed by your reasoning on that point,
and also on your point quoted hereinabove.

I will admit that there are advocates of all points of vu
whose minds are not able to reason well; as to them, I agree
that discussion does not work well, but that is not a function of
substantive philosophical content.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 12:19 am

ERRATUM:

"Something that I enjoy doing A LOT is sitting closely
with someone whose conclusions are alien to mine and probing,
with dispassionate, meticulous analysis, how and Y his thinking
has evolved to reached the conclusions that it did."

Shud have been rendered:

Something that I enjoy doing A LOT is sitting closely
with someone whose conclusions are alien to mine and probing,
with dispassionate, meticulous analysis, how and Y his thinking
has evolved to reach the conclusions that it did.





David
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 06:11 am
@firefly,
Quote:
I don't think I learned anything from the video. Did you?


I found a few things interesting that I did not know. It turns out that just one voice can make a difference towards prejudicial behavior. It seems that people learn prejudicial behavior from their environment and they also learn to stop being prejudice from their environment as well.
You are a part of their environment and if you remain silent to their behavior then you are not helping matters.

Quote:
If I were in a store where I heard an employee spouting similar bigoted and offensive things about any religious, ethnic, or racial group, my personal reaction would probably be to just walk out


It turns out that once you do voice opposition to prejudicial behavior the people who express that behavior do leave the room thinking about it, "rethinking their position in many cases and being a little quieter about it. People who do have a {conscience} will rethink their position at times.

Evil Thrives When Good People Do Nothing.




Quote:
Do you also consider racist attitudes or anti-gay attitudes "sociopathic"? Do you not think that people, who are not at all "sociopathic", can fall prey to stereotyped and bigoted attitudes simply out of ignorance?
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 06:19 am
@firefly,
Quote:

Does anyone doubt that there are other wrongs that need to be addressed?


Yes and No, Sure people realize that there are other wrongs that need to be addressed but what is sad are the other wrongs that the people do not see as being wrong. 2 Cents
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 01:00 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I remain perplexed by your reasoning on that point,
and also on your point quoted hereinabove

In the situation depicted in that video, where a bigoted store clerk is shooting his mouth off, I would see no point in either trying to reason with him, or argue with him, nor would I want to listen to him, nor would I want to patronize the store. In that particular situation, I think I would leave the store and then write a letter to the owner telling him why I would not be returning there. So, I wouldn't be ignoring the situation either.

In other situations, I might react quite differently. It depends on the context.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 01:05 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:


Is Antisemitism on the rise?



No, but swallowing the Kremlin's propaganda wholesale appears to be.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 01:18 pm
@firefly,
DAVID wrote:
I remain perplexed by your reasoning on that point,
and also on your point quoted hereinabove
firefly wrote:
In the situation depicted in that video, where a bigoted store clerk is shooting his mouth off, I would see no point in either trying to reason with him, or argue with him, nor would I want to listen to him, nor would I want to patronize the store. In that particular situation, I think I would leave the store and then write a letter to the owner telling him why I would not be returning there. So, I wouldn't be ignoring the situation either.

In other situations, I might react quite differently. It depends on the context.
Is your position in this matter uniquely limited
to race & religion, or woud your response be the same
if the passionate differences of opinion were as to tax policy
or the law of voting age, or agricultural policy ?





David
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 01:22 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
No, but swallowing the Kremlin's propaganda wholesale appears to be.


Are you making the claim that the ADL is a propaganda tool of the Kremlin? I did not know that.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 01:34 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Is your position in this matter uniquely limited
to race & religion, or woud your response be the same
if the passionate differences of opinion were as to tax policy
or the law of voting age, or agricultural policy ?


That is a rather interesting question, what is your answer David?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2012 01:35 pm
@reasoning logic,
RT is.
 

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