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A better understanding of Antisemitism

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 7 Feb, 2012 09:26 am
@jespah,
Sex are a lot more fun . . .
jespah
 
  1  
Tue 7 Feb, 2012 04:31 pm
@Setanta,
True, but we're busy with all this taking over of industries and whatnot.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Tue 7 Feb, 2012 05:00 pm
@jespah,
Rather than joking about it, I would be be doing all that I could to mend public relations because there are a lot of people buying into the antisemitism. I see it only getting worse when people do not take it seriously.
What does the rest of the world think about the Jews and what have the Jews been doing to put peoples minds at ease? I would hate to see another holocaust.
I would take antisemitism more seriously and I do not mean creating laws that make it illegal to speak out against Jewish people but rather spending a little more time with your surrounding communities to let them know that you have a hart. Wink

Please keep in mind that this is only my observation from my point of view and I am certain that not everyone shares my point of view.
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 8 Feb, 2012 03:51 am
@reasoning logic,
No, there aren't a lot of people buying into that ****. There is a lunatic fringe of hard-core racists who spread this bullshit, and an insignificant fraction of the population (such as you) who are credulous enough to take the hate-inspired propaganda seriously. The rest of us don't have such whacky, paranoid fantasies, and knowing someone is a Jew has absolutely no bearing on how we see them and deal with them. In fact, i met Jespah in person and knew her online for years before i even found out she's Jewish, which didn't mean anything anyway because i judge people on content of character. Upon which basis i'm even more inclined to follow my previous instincts and just ignore you.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 8 Feb, 2012 04:38 am
@Setanta,
You're quite right, humour is the best way to deal with the hard core racists. Nobody should have to apologise for who they are.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  2  
Wed 8 Feb, 2012 07:18 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Rather than joking about it, I would be be doing all that I could to mend public relations because there are a lot of people buying into the antisemitism. I see it only getting worse when people do not take it seriously.
What does the rest of the world think about the Jews and what have the Jews been doing to put peoples minds at ease? I would hate to see another holocaust.
I would take antisemitism more seriously and I do not mean creating laws that make it illegal to speak out against Jewish people but rather spending a little more time with your surrounding communities to let them know that you have a hart. Wink

Please keep in mind that this is only my observation from my point of view and I am certain that not everyone shares my point of view.


I take anti-Semitism extremely seriously. I was taunted and hit for being a Jew in 6th grade. That serious enough for you?

Most of the United States, so far as I can tell, has come to the conclusion that Jews aren't monsters. The public relations you see as needing mending is, at least in the US, mostly mended.

By the way, the word is heart. A hart is a male deer. And of course I spend time in my community. I live here. And I don't need to yap on about my religion any more than my Catholic and Protestant and Muslim neighbors do. We pitched in to help save our local library. We fix up our home and everyone's property values go up. We say good morning at the bus stop and we tell the grocer when we've been given back too much change. If someone's toddler runs out into the street, we help to hold back the cars so that child's parent can catch him or her before getting hurt.

And no one needs to see me wearing a Mogen David, or not, in order for these things to happen. No one needs to have it whapped over their head that I don't believe in Christ, any more than I need to have it whapped over my head that my neighbors on the left side do. When they trim their hedges so that I can see better when maneuvering my car out, or I see them standing in line on Election Day for voting, I don't go checking for crosses around their necks.
panzade
 
  1  
Wed 8 Feb, 2012 03:32 pm
RL , take my advice. Come all the way out of that anti-Semitic closet. You'll feel a whole lot better. Idea
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Wed 8 Feb, 2012 05:45 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
)No, there aren't a lot of people buying into that ****.

If that is what you think I am cool with that.

Quote:
There is a lunatic fringe of hard-core racists who spread this bullshit, and an insignificant fraction of the population (such as you) who are credulous enough to take the hate-inspired propaganda seriously.


I am sure that there are some hard-core racist and some misinformed people that spread the bull ****. I take all hate-inspired propaganda seriously I do not find it to be a joking matter "unless it is coming from Lewis black.

Quote:
Upon which basis i'm even more inclined to follow my previous instincts and just ignore you.


I would think that it is obvious that you have not paid me much attention this far because I have written over 4000 post and you do not know my character yet.


0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Wed 8 Feb, 2012 06:12 pm
@jespah,
Quote:
I take anti-Semitism extremely seriously. I was taunted and hit for being a Jew in 6th grade. That serious enough for you?

Sorry to hear about your experience. I do apologize for coming off wrong because I myself listen to comedians make jokes about such issues but the sad thing is these issues should be taken more seriously in my opinion because we live in a very sick world.

Quote:
Most of the United States, so far as I can tell, has come to the conclusion that Jews aren't monsters. The public relations you see as needing mending is, at least in the US, mostly mended.


Maybe so but I have heard people through out my life talking bad about Jews and nothing good at all to say about them. I care about all people no matter what color, race, gender, sexuality, religion and so forth that a person may be. The only thing I hate are the immoral acts that people do, "not the people themselves.

Quote:
By the way, the word is heart. A hart is a male deer.


Stick around and you will see many more of my weak points.

Quote:
I spend time in my community. I live here. And I don't need to yap on about my religion any more than my Catholic and Protestant and Muslim neighbors do. We pitched in to help save our local library. We fix up our home and everyone's property values go up. We say good morning at the bus stop and we tell the grocer when we've been given back too much change. If someone's toddler runs out into the street, we help to hold back the cars so that child's parent can catch him or her before getting hurt.


I am glad that you do all that you have listed, you sound like an out standing citizen.

I do wish that the Jewish community would form a group that was more visible [I am one that is not very observant] so that all would know what they are doing to help out communities and not only their own communities but the global community.



TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 06:30 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

I have an interest in the understanding of human behavior and in my quest for understanding the origins of antisemitism I have come to the conclusion that many Jewish people are well educated and have been for 1,000's of years, with this being so they seem to have had an economic advantage over many people.
Many Jews [Not all}seem to have practiced business the same way that non- Jews practiced business {sociopathically and less sociopathically} but with a much higher success rate than many non Jewish people.

When these Jews found themselves doing very well they also found themselves being hated by some people in the same professions, other people thought that they had been taken advantage of and many people have been fed propaganda that may have been true and some that was false, This seems to be what sparked a lot of hate.

In my opinion it does seem that some Jews just like non Jews have indulged in sociopathic or unethical business practices on a very large scale and for a very long time, we can find these practices in the old testament and throughout history in such things as slave trade and usury.
Keep in mind that the Jews were not the only people engaging in such practices and it does seem that their God allows for such practices, What is our excuse?

I would like to hear from many others on this subject because this is how I learn.



You do realize that jews are clan-ish, and isolationist. This might also explain why people don 't allow them to own land, and property, which sort of force them into trade, and banking. You see similarly with the Chinese of south east Asia, and the farsi of India. People who are deprived of the ability to own land, and property, and forced into banking, and finance.
0 Replies
 
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 06:35 am
@Green Witch,
Green Witch wrote:

Quote:
I would think that it may have had more to do with their education.


To be a pious Jew it was important to be able to read, thus an emphasis on education, but education was not for earning money early on in their history. Imagine you live in a world where most people make a living by farming and yet you are forbidden in most places to own land; or if you do own land you might lose it quickly to people who can take it from you without punishment. What do you do? You put your trade in your head - thus knowledge becomes your greatest asset. You can live anywhere and have a way to make money. You can pack up your books and run to a safe place. The only way someone can steal your profession is by killing you. If you look back into history you will see Jews start to transition to a knowledge based society from an agricultural based society not so much because they want to, but because they are forced to.


Studying the talmud might not be profitable, but the way they study it, does develop complex abstract argumentation that give them a premium for knowledge based professions.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  2  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 08:57 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

....I do wish that the Jewish community would form a group that was more visible [I am one that is not very observant] so that all would know what they are doing to help out communities and not only their own communities but the global community.


But why is that needed? Truly. Think about it. Do other minorities feel the need to trumpet that they're doing wonderful things for the world? I appreciate you saying I'm a great citizen, but I don't do these things to be recognized or to be loved or to be a credit to my faith or anything of the sort. I do them because I think they're the right things to do. I don't look for an audience.

And, there is no one Jewish community. This is a religion with several sects. Is the Jewish community Orthodox? If they are, then I am not a part, as I barely can read Hebrew, haven't had kids by choice and haven't made aliyah and haven't been to synagogue in years. Is it Reform? Then I am not a part, for I know too much Hebrew, and probably practiced too much when I was younger. Is it Chasid? Then I am not a part, for I, a married woman, do not wear a sheitl, and I work outside the home. Is it Conservative? Reconstructionist? Is it Ashkenazi? Is it Sephardic?

This is not a monolith, any more than all Protestants are the same, for they will tell you that Lutherans and Methodists and Baptists differ, and that declaring that the Protestant community is Presbyterian is to alienate a goodly chunk of folks who rightfully refer to themselves as Protestants. Just because this faith is less known in America by others that does not necessarily mean that there is so much hatred. I don't dispute that there is, for I have seen it. But I don't go looking for it, and most people don't seem to have it.

I dated a guy in 1987 and into early 1988, my last serious boyfriend before the man who became my husband. And he introduced me to his grandmother. For whatever reason, she told me that she was his grandfather's second wife, and that the first one had been Jewish. And she said to me, "And you know how those people are." So I asked her, "What are they like?" I've forgotten what she said, possibly this boyfriend's mother distracted everyone so that I never got an answer. It's been going on 25 years and I've probably forgotten those specifics. But yes, there are folks like that out there. And for all of those experiences, and for when I was whacked across the back of my head and called a Dirty Jew in 6th grade, there have been hundreds if not thousands of positive experiences.

I don't forget the bad experiences, but I don't let them define me.
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 09:28 am
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

But why is that needed? Truly. Think about it. Do other minorities feel the need to trumpet that they're doing wonderful things for the world? I appreciate you saying I'm a great citizen, but I don't do these things to be recognized or to be loved or to be a credit to my faith or anything of the sort. I do them because I think they're the right things to do. I don't look for an audience.



Might not be such a bad idea to spread how well each group do to benefit mankind. Minorities all over the world from the Uzback, farsi, Rome, Chinese, poles, Irish..etc.. are always be killed, marginalized, or rape because of ethnic, religious violence. There kind of things are rather common, and I always wonder why there is so much senseless blood spilled over meaningless things. People might start to appreciate one another more if they know more about other groups. Increase empathy is the best weapon.
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 10:18 am
@jespah,
Here you go to the core of this bigotry, which, like all bigotry, portrays the target as a monolith, every member the same in the community. One can rail against christians, for example (Dog knows i have), but which christians? There are, of couse, many different flavors. I try (although i might not always do it) to specify religious extremists, rather than tarring all of a confession, or all confessions with the same brush. But this is like that little exchange earlier with GW, when i had asked someone if they don't all look the same, and she said, no that's the orientals. Bigots need to have their target group portrayed as all being the same.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  2  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 11:21 am
@TuringEquivalent,
I'm fine with people knowing how wonderful I am (or people like me are), but then of course we are hit with the Jews are smarter, Jews think they're so great whatever kind of argument. Ya can't win when playing that kind of a "look how awesome we are, in case you had no idea" game.

Plus - really - can't people open history books and look? Jonas Salk was a Jew. Alexander Fleming was not. Why is it so important to know Salk's faith and not Fleming's? Why do you believe that the people of Salk's faith need to advertise, whereas those of Fleming's (probably Presbyterian, as if that mattered one whit) don't? Is either's achievement better/more helpful/smarter/more kick-ass awesome because we know which day they rested (or were supposed to), which language they prayed in (or were supposed to) and whether or not they ate pork?
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 12:55 pm
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

I'm fine with people knowing how wonderful I am (or people like me are), but then of course we are hit with the Jews are smarter, Jews think they're so great whatever kind of argument. Ya can't win when playing that kind of a "look how awesome we are, in case you had no idea" game.

Plus - really - can't people open history books and look? Jonas Salk was a Jew. Alexander Fleming was not. Why is it so important to know Salk's faith and not Fleming's? Why do you believe that the people of Salk's faith need to advertise, whereas those of Fleming's (probably Presbyterian, as if that mattered one whit) don't? Is either's achievement better/more helpful/smarter/more kick-ass awesome because we know which day they rested (or were supposed to), which language they prayed in (or were supposed to) and whether or not they ate pork?


I don 't mean a contest of achievements, but by spreading why Jews( or any other marginalized group) are the way they are. Some groups do overachieve in certain things( like how immigrants do better at school than natives). This would lead to envy, but if the marginal group can tell a story of causes to that advantage, and increase greater empathy, people will be less likely to massacre your kind. A common ethnic violent theme is when one group don 't consider another group, human. The dominate group demonize another group of people. The best defense is to increase communication( in the right way)), and make your kind more humanistic. The Jews are not special, because there is really a lot of other groups in the world that experience this problem. The internet is good, i guess, because people are less likely to be influenced by the media, and have more connection with "different" people.

0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  -1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 04:03 pm
@jespah,
Quote:
Do other minorities feel the need to trumpet that they're doing wonderful things for the world?

I would not necessarily trumpet but instead just do something nice for someone who is down and out.
Example.
A hard working single mother in need of a car or a home or anything for that matter just give it to her somewhat anonymously with a letter letting her know that the local Jewish community hopes that all her dreams come true.
This lady and all of her family will always tell the story about how she was helped by the Jewish community.

Quote:

But why is that needed?


I would think that this would be like water on the Antisemitic fire.
There is no need to be there with cameras and so forth for publicity, just knowing that a group that you stand with has helped someone to have a better life than what they may have had without your help may make you feel proud.

Quote:
This is a religion with several sects. Is the Jewish community Orthodox? If they are, then I am not a part, as I barely can read Hebrew, haven't had kids by choice and haven't made aliyah and haven't been to synagogue in years. Is it Reform? Then I am not a part, for I know too much Hebrew, and probably practiced too much when I was younger. Is it Chasid? Then I am not a part, for I, a married woman, do not wear a sheitl, and I work outside the home. Is it Conservative? Reconstructionist? Is it Ashkenazi? Is it Sephardic?


I do not see a need to worry about the Jones or other religions and what they are doing because I am sad to say that many of these {not all} seem to blow their horns so loud and offer so little help for those in need.

Quote:
I dated a guy in 1987 and into early 1988, my last serious boyfriend before the man who became my husband. And he introduced me to his grandmother. For whatever reason, she told me that she was his grandfather's second wife, and that the first one had been Jewish. And she said to me, "And you know how those people are."


I am sure that things have not changed much over the years.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 06:44 pm
I am kind of surprised to see the number of Antisemitic Jews out there.


0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 07:01 pm
@reasoning logic,
Sounds to me that you are an anti-Semite, plain and simple.

You think that your "keep in mind, "other people, " and "Not All" inserts give you cover, but they do not.

If you truly believed Jews were no more guilty of the sins you've outlined, you wouldn't have started this thread or you would hasve written it in a far different manner.

I would like a better understanding of what the people who actually know you think of you.



reasoning logic
 
  1  
Thu 9 Feb, 2012 07:10 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Sounds to me that you are an anti-Semite, plain and simple.


Why not give moral philosophy a few month trial and see what you think?
0 Replies
 
 

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