Iran - What Nuclear Weapons Program?

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

No such thing is clear about Egypt.

Well, it's clear to me.

Setanta wrote:

You'd like to think that they'll provide a justification for zionist expansion,

No, I made a statement of what I actually think is going to happen.

I made a statement about "what I'd like to happen" yesterday, when I spoke of my desire to see Israel annex everything west of "the wall".

Possibly the US could crack down on Egypt and make them start acting civilized, but I wouldn't count on it.

Setanta wrote:

but once again, that's because you've drunk the ideological koolaid, and not because you have good reason to make the claim.

No, Egypt's recent behavior is plenty good reason to see trouble on the horizon.

We've seen Egyptians ransack the Israeli embassy, with the Egyptian military doing nothing to stop it.

We've seen Egypt allow Palestinian terrorists from Gaza into Israel to murder civilians, and then whine piteously (as if they were somehow victims) when the gunfight with those terrorists also killed some Egyptian border guards.

We've seen Egyptians gang rape a famous American reporter, with the Egyptian government apparently seeing no crime worth investigating or prosecuting.

We've seen Egyptians rampage and massacre peaceful Copts, with the Egyptian military stepping in to prevent the Copts from defending themselves from the people who were massacring them.

0 Replies

None of that constitutes reasons for Israel to begin a ruinous war with Egypt. We know that Mossad routinely kidnaps and murders people in other nations--by the standards you use, Israel is just as much a trouble maker as Egypt. Egypt has had more than 30 years of peace. This has been good for the Egyptian economy, although not necessarily for the "man on the street" in Egypt. The Supreme Council of the Military owns or has a controling investment in 90% of native Egyptian corporations. What's good for the Egyptian economy benefits the military more than it does anyone else in Egypt. They have little to nothing to gain from war, and a great deal to lose. If there were such a war, it would be because Israel started it, and even the zionists there aren't that stupid.

You're not describing what's likely to happen, you're describing what you would like to see happen. That's because you are motivated by ideological considerations, reactionary American partisan attitudes of those who applaud the zionists, and not by solid evidence.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

None of that constitutes reasons for Israel to begin a ruinous war with Egypt.

I've not said anything about Israel starting any war. And (for Israel at least) the war is unlikely to be ruinous.

Setanta wrote:

We know that Mossad routinely kidnaps and murders people in other nations--by the standards you use, Israel is just as much a trouble maker as Egypt.

Israel is only exercising self-defense against those who insist on attacking them. That doesn't make them a troublemaker.

Setanta wrote:

Egypt has had more than 30 years of peace. This has been good for the Egyptian economy, although not necessarily for the "man on the street" in Egypt. The Supreme Council of the Military owns or has a controling investment in 90% of native Egyptian corporations. What's good for the Egyptian economy benefits the military more than it does anyone else in Egypt. They have little to nothing to gain from war, and a great deal to lose.

Were Egypt rational, they would indeed not start a war with Israel.

I have no confidence in their rationality based on their recent behavior.

Setanta wrote:

If there were such a war, it would be because Israel started it, and even the zionists there aren't that stupid.

The only time Israel ever started a war, the UK and France were equally as culpable for starting it.

Traditionally Israel doesn't start wars. They merely win them after other people start them. There is no danger that Israel will start a war with Egypt.

Setanta wrote:

You're not describing what's likely to happen, you're describing what you would like to see happen.

No, "what I'd like to see happen" would focus on entirely different things. I have little interest in the Sinai.

Setanta wrote:

That's because you are motivated by ideological considerations, reactionary American partisan attitudes of those who applaud the zionists, and not by solid evidence.

I provided a list of Egypt's questionable behavior in my previous post. That is plenty of evidence for thinking that Egypt is out to cause trouble.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Of course you haven't said anything about Israel starting a war--that's because it would be idiotic for them to do so, just as it would be idiotic for Egypt to do so. However, such a war would be ruinous for Israel, which cannot afford constant warfare--and fighting Egypt wouldn't be the same as killing Palestinian children while claiming to go after Hamas.

Kidnappings and murders in foreign countries are not recognized by any nation as acts of self-defense. You sound like a child who is pointing a finger while saying "he started it!"

There's absolutley no reason based on Egypts actions at any time in the last 30 years to assume they would go to war with Israel. As i said, it's just would you would like to see, not what is likely to happen. There is just as much reason to see Israel as a troublemaker as there is to see Egypt in that light. You just have a prejudice which you cannot overcome, and which overcomes your judgement.

I'm sure you would be delighted to see such a war. Guys like you get a hard-on when the bullets fly, don't ya?

2 Replies

@Setanta,

Straight out of the conservative playbook (from the NYT).

Quote:

Obama Says Military Option on Iran Not a ‘Bluff’

President Obama rejected suggestions that the West could contain a nuclear-armed Iran, and warned that the United States could take military action to prevent it from acquiring a bomb.

2 Replies

@MontereyJack,

Of course the Moslem states in the Middle East are concerned about the Palestinians. That's why they are so eager to take in Palistinians.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Here's the interview to which the Times is referring:

Obama to Iran and Israel: 'As President of the United States, I Don't Bluff''

Quote:

Dismissing a strategy of "containment," the president tells me it's "unacceptable" for the Islamic Republic to have a nuclear weapon.

1 Reply

The point is, Roger, that Palestinian lands were not in Jordan or Iraq or Syria. They were in what is now Israel. They were ousted as a result of the wars over that land, and that is where they are entitled by international law and convention to return, not Jordan, not Iraq, not Egypt. If the other countries make them citizens of that country, then it de facto legitimizes what is perceived as a totally illegitimate act of denial of land rights by Israel. It's not something that Jordan or any other country should have to bear the burden of. That burden belongs to Israel.

2 Replies

@MontereyJack,

So, you think Israel's neighbors are actually interested in the best interests of the Palestinian people. This is not our first disagreement.

1 Reply

@roger,

Your response is a non-sequitur and completely ignores MJ's point. Israel's neighbors are interested, first and foremost in their own interests. It isn't in their interests to have a large population that do not identify with those nations which is the case with a large segment of peoples in those countries that identify themselves as Palestinians. The Palestinian refugee issue is the direct result of the creation of the state of Israel, and as such, is something for which Israel is ultimately responsible, not its neighbors.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Of coarse they're interested; many Palestinians live in "camps" in Jordan, and I'm sure in many of Israel's neighboring countries. How do they find work or feed themselves, and how about the sanitary conditions. How can they not be interested?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

So, why do the live in camps? Blame Israel for Jordanian rules if it makes sense to you.

2 Replies

@roger,

I know of this situation, because I saw those camps when my sister and I visited Jordan many years ago.

From Wiki.

Quote:

Palestinian refugee
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Palestinian refugees
Total (2008 population) 4.62 million.[1] For the basis of this figure also see the UNRWA Definition
UNRWA estimated refugees from 1947: 711,000[2]
Regions with significant populations: Gaza Strip, Israel (sometimes known as present absentees), Jordan, West Bank, Lebanon, Syria
Languages: Arabic
Religions: Sunni Islam, Greek Orthodoxy, Greek Catholicism, other forms of Christianity
Palestinian refugees or Palestine refugees, as defined by United Nations General Assembly's Resolution 194 and confirmed by the UN Conciliation Commission for Palestine (UNCCP)[3], are persons who have been displaced from their homes in Palestine, including both Arabs and Jews.
Resolution 194 was adopted by the General Assembly on 11 December 1948, calling for the return of refugees from the ongoing Arab-Israeli hostilities. It forms one basis of the Palestinian claim for a right of return.
Most Jewish Palestine refugees have taken citizenship in Israel and in other countries. Displaced Arab Palestinian Refugees fled to other Middle Eastern countries, where their situation is often precarious and some have taken citizenship in Western countries. On taking up citizenship in another country which affords them protection, refugees lose their refugee status.[4] Most Arab Palestinian Refugees have retained their refugee status and continue to reside in refugee camps, including in the Palestinian territories. Palestinian refugees and their descendants form a sizable portion of the Palestinian diaspora.

0 Replies

@roger,

Like I said, you completely ignore MontereyJack's response.

You're a lot like msolga and Finn dAbuzz in that regard. The answer is right in front of you but for some reason you ignore it, or refuse to acknowledge it.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

I'm more likely to ignore your's than MJs.

1 Reply

@roger,

That still leaves the problem of you not seeing past your own nose when you go around in circles with your idle questions.

0 Replies

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Of course you haven't said anything about Israel starting a war--that's because it would be idiotic for them to do so, just as it would be idiotic for Egypt to do so. However, such a war would be ruinous for Israel, which cannot afford constant warfare--and fighting Egypt wouldn't be the same as killing Palestinian children while claiming to go after Hamas.

I disagree that it would be ruinous for Israel.

Setanta wrote:

Kidnappings and murders in foreign countries are not recognized by any nation as acts of self-defense.

Nonetheless, Israel is merely defending themselves from those who insist on attacking them.

Setanta wrote:

You sound like a child who is pointing a finger while saying "he started it!"

Well, it is a fair point that Israel will not be the one who starts the war.

Setanta wrote:

There's absolutley no reason based on Egypts actions at any time in the last 30 years to assume they would go to war with Israel. As i said, it's just would you would like to see, not what is likely to happen.

It is not a statement of what I'd like to see. I have no particular interest in the Sinai.

I disagree that it is not likely to happen.

Setanta wrote:

There is just as much reason to see Israel as a troublemaker as there is to see Egypt in that light.

Israel is just defending themselves. That isn't being a troublemaker.

Setanta wrote:

You just have a prejudice which you cannot overcome, and which overcomes your judgement.

I'm sure you would be delighted to see such a war.

"Delight" would be a bit too strong a term. But I'd certainly kick back and watch the bombs explode on TV. It sounds like an ideal pizza and Guinness night. And maybe I'd smirk a bit (in my view, Egypt is asking for it).

Setanta wrote:

Guys like you get a hard-on when the bullets fly, don't ya?

No.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Oh, it would be disastrous for Israel, their idiot adventure into the Lebanon proves that. Israel is not simply defending themselves when they go into other nations and kidnap and murder. Are you really so dense as not to see that that makes people want to attack them? If Israel doesn't "start the war," there will be no war with Egypt. As there is no reason for Egypt to attack Israel, Israel won't need to defend itself. What do you allege Egypt is asking for? If they don't attack Israel, do you allege that they will have asked Israel to attck them? Will you then allege that Egypt started it. Man, your claims are so loony as to be almost unbelievable.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Straight out of the conservative playbook (from the NYT).

Quote:
Obama Says Military Option on Iran Not a ‘Bluff’

President Obama rejected suggestions that the West could contain a nuclear-armed Iran, and warned that the United States could take military action to prevent it from acquiring a bomb.

It's going to take some serious cogdis now for you to keep up your illusion that Obama isn't willing to bomb Iran's nuclear program.

0 Replies

@Irishk,

Irishk wrote:

Here's the interview to which the Times is referring:

Obama to Iran and Israel: 'As President of the United States, I Don't Bluff''

Quote:
Dismissing a strategy of "containment," the president tells me it's "unacceptable" for the Islamic Republic to have a nuclear weapon.

Yep.

0 Replies

Iran - What Nuclear Weapons Program?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know