Bibi makes Iranian friends

"...although women are required to cover their hair and wear loose clothing in public, jeans are not forbidden and are worn. Much western music is illegal, but people find a way to listen to it at home."

And yet Netanyahu's comments are hilarious?

Afterall, why should anyone care about the rights of women in Islamist countries? The men in such nations are allowed to wear jeans and they find a way to listen to illegal music. It's all good!

Don't be so thick. What's hilarious is Bibi's misunderstanding of Iranian society and the way he manages to antagonise pretty much everybody he's talking to or about. He's oozing bad vibes, hubris and stupidity.

Are ultra orthodox women in Israel or Brooklyn allowed to wear jeans and listen to Lady Gaga's latest?

If they did, they wouldn't be ultra Orthodox. Perhaps, that would be a sign they are becoming Conservative, or "Modox" (Modern Orthodox)? Jews move between the different denominations, from generation to generation. The Reform Jews of suburbia today often have grandparents from Eastern Europe a century ago that were orthodox. The U.S. culture is very seductive, in my opinion. Plus, there is nothing wrong in the U.S. to just adopt another faith. Do that in a Muslim country, and see what happens.

I'd be curious to see the stats... Most modern US reform Jews are the descendants of European reformed Jews, as I understand it. In any case, a girl born in a ultra orthodox community doesn't seem to have better prospects than a girl born in Iran, regarding jeans and modern music... Or re. changing her religion for christianity, islam or buddhism...

You've always been a staunch supporter of women's rights haven't you Finn?

You are wrong. The German Jewish migration in the mid-nineteenth century was not that large. It was part of the immigration of Germans after the Revolution of 1848. A percentage married into Christian families before the turn of the 20th century. Those that remained Jewish were Reformed, since the Reformed denomination started in Germany.

The big wave of Jewish immigration was the Russian Jews of the late nineteenth century, and early 20th century, before the gates were closed in 1924. They were mostly orthodox, not Chassidim. Their children often became Conservative, and their children might be Reformed today living in suburbia. So, by sheer numbers alone, most Reformed Jews today are descended from the Russian Jewish immigration between 1880 and 1923 of originally religious (Orthodox by today's definition).

I believe a majority of the Orthodox today are descended from survivors of the Holocaust that came here post WWII. Same with the Chassidim. They live in a community that allows people to leave, if they choose, but if one stays in the community, certain ways (jeans, etc.) would be like breaking wind in church - it is not done, or one might be asked to leave, or at least decide if one wants to remain within the community? So, since the Orthodox community maintains standards for their adherents, it is silly to talk about whether one can wear jeans, and still be Orthodox. Sort of like saying why can't one be a librarian but be illiterate. The incongruity of behavior that is alien to the Orthodox community just means that it is a closed club for those that subscribe to the standards; however, there is no legal way to stop someone from leaving the community. If you are not aware, the laws in the U.S. do not allow such actions between adults.

Thanks for the history lesson. Still, Bibi should try and liberate his own people, in priority, from the grip of religious chauvinism. That would avoid him some embarrassment. Iranians can make their own decisions.

I have heard more than one pundit say, tongue in cheek, that if Israel didn't have the Arabs as adversaries there would have been a civil war between the ultra-orthodox Israelis, and the secular Israelis. Many Israelis just observe Jewish holidays, since they are national holidays (like Christmas is a national holiday in the U.S.). But, they do not subscribe to the dietary (Kosher) laws, nor the daily prayers, etc. In my opinion, one should remember that the modern state of Israel is not that old, and will evolve as a society. Who knows where Judaism (the religion, not the movie - joke) is going?

Well, that struggle goes on. The secular are loosing it, and some are leaving the country as a result.


Backward, as far as I can tell. It's not the only religion doing that...

Yes, as a matter of fact I have izzy.

You have some reason to think otherwise?

Maybe because you only seem to use it when you want to attack Moslems. Of all Moslems why do you criticise the Iranian ones? Iranian women are a lot freer than Saudi women.

Saudi Arabia is an ally, so as long as they buy our guns and sell us their oil its citizens can fund as many extremist groups, with as many potential 9/11s, as they want. The Wahhabist brand of Islam is far more intolerant than anything Iran could dream up.

Before getting so sanctimonious about Iran take a good hard look at America's (&UK's) "allies."

The topic is Iran, not Saudi Arabia and it wasn't women in Muslim countries.

If you and Olivier wish to give a pass to Iran on its treatment of its female citizens, be my guest. It only shreds the piety you express elsewhere.

The Saudi's oppression of women is revolting as is the game they play placating the Islamists in their nation by funding the spread of Wahhabism abroad.

I don't consider the Saudis an ally of the US (and I doubt they are much of one for the UK). They are oily partners who we should and would cut loose the minute we could.

And unless you are keeping a detailed log of my posts you have no idea when and how I support womens rights.

It doesn't matter if a culture is Muslim, Christian, Hindu or pagan, if it oppresses women in the manner of the Iranians, the Afghans, and the Saudis (to name but a few), I find it disgusting.

Ya know, he's not half wrong. I'm not a huge fan of Netanyahu's by any means. But he was saying what most Americans wont, that Iranians are pretty much like the rest of us. The fact that they do listen to western music and wear jeans just proves his point. Now, if only they had free elections..

Never once before have I heard you stick up for women's rights, unless you're using it to bash Moslems. Despite your protests you're just being opportunistic. Moslem women could have exactly the same rights as those in the West and you'd still hate them every bit as much.

Of course Iranians are like us. They don't come from Jupiter... What Bibi is really saying is: sorry but I'm gona have to bomb you, unless you kindly remove your leadership for me.

It's not only a faux pas, it's also a pipe dream. Wuth the amount of threats they have been subjected too, ANY Iranian leader would wish to keep the nuke option open. In that too, they are like us, and like the Israelis who have developed nukes a long time ago for exactly the same reasons.

This might go back to the old saying that the early bird gets the nuke. Additionally, there would be no problem if the prior President of Iran did not explicitly say that Israel should be wiped off the map. This is not an invitation to tea. So, considering the goal of Hitler was to wipe Jews off of the face of the Earth, there must have been some similarity in the minds of some Israelis. Who knows; maybe Iran was just doing a similar imitatation of Krushchev's shoe banging at the UN, when Krushchev said he would bury the US? Well, if the Soviets did not have nukes at that time, what would the US have done? Since the Soviets did have nukes, a Cold War ensued. It is really inappropriate to ignore such behavior. Israel, being smaller than the U.S., needs to take such talk more seriously. But, you know better, I guess. What with all sorts of geo-political experience and education, I'd guess.

The point I made, which you ignored, is that US and Israeli politicians have threatened to bomb Iran many times, so Iran is in exactly the same situation as Israel in the 50's and 60's - and they will reply the same way: by building the bomb in order to be and feel safe (or the current plan, which seems to be to retain the capacity to build the bomb without actually building one). And they are right, nukes are the only way for them to be safe, given that the US have invaded two of their neighbors in rapid succession...

Originally the non-proliferation treaty was for a reduction or elimination of nukes by major powers, in exchange for small powers deciding to forgo their development. The treaty has become a con job where the guys having nukes basically say to the rest of the planet: 'we will keep our nukes forever and can blow you to smithereens but you can't, ha ha ha'.

They had them, Ceili, way back in the early 1950s. Then the US and the UK overthrew the democratically elected government and installed their own brutal dictator, who lasted until the Iranians threw him out.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that these folks who come from the very countries that regularly steal freedom, not to mention wealth, from others, should be prancing about singing about freedom and rights?

******* US propaganda, Foofie! Fer christ's sakes, try thinking for yourself.