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Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
mysteryman
 
  3  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 03:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'm not choosing the side of anyone, I am simply refusing to let emotion cloud my judgement.

I freely admit that people ove r 50 do have trouble finding new jobs, but my criticism ism directed mainly at the people that are in their 20's and early 30's, that are complaining and whining.
I am willing to bet that if I went to the OWS camp in NYC, and offered 100 people a job paying $40,000 per year, but they had to move to Montana or Wyoming or FT. Bragg Ca or anywhere else, they would refuse it.

I was always tought that looking for a job is a full time job, and I dont see how these people in OWS can be looking for jobs.
Also, if there are no jobs where you are, MOVE to where the jobs are.

I have had many jobs that I didnt like, but I have a family to support and was willing to do whatever it took to support them.
Maybe I have a different work ethic, but
when you need a job, you take anything that comes along.

Also, if you get a degree in underwater basket weaving, dont be surprised if you cant use thatr to get a job.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 03:47 pm
@mysteryman,
Remind me never to work for you.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 04:14 pm
@DrewDad,
You mmisunderstand me.

I said an employer is not required to provide benefits, that does not mean that a good employer wont provide them.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 04:57 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
I said an employer is not required to provide benefits, that does not mean that a good employer wont provide them.


And a smart employee will hold out, if at all possible, for an employer that does.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 05:29 pm
@DrewDad,
So no job and no benefits is a winning strategy over taking a job with no benefits. How do such smart employees feed themselves and their families while they're pressing their advantage?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 05:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Why, extended unemployment compensation, of course!

<some people have to have everything explained>
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 05:35 pm
@roger,
Of course! How dumb of me.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  4  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 10:33 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

I was thinking about the 99% concept. Does that have any more credibility than the moral majority or the silent majority?

Sure it does.

Think of the logical order of the two groups. They are quite different. In the case of the Moral Majority, the distinction is based on subjective beliefs. In the case of the 99% it's a objective distinction by income. In the case of the the MM, the distinction asserts a pretty rigid social/political platform--the exact thing that #Occupy is criticized for not having.

Think about it, what would the 99% look like? Would it be uniform in it's thoughts and feelings, or would it be diverse, and even divergent? In this regard, the 99% mantra of #occupy is probably one of the best social cross-sections of our culture to emerge in a long time. This certainly in spite of many who'd like to reduce this to a caricature of just a bunch of young jobless hippies no matter how diverse the crowds actually are.

A
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T
failures art
 
  5  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:16 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

"Yeah, it's cold, we'll go back home and start up again in the spring."- really? Is that your level of committing? No marches even during the cold months? And yet he wants me that I should take him seriously?

So let me get this straight.

If they leave - You mock them for not having it in them to stay.

If they stay - You scoff at their presence and the futility of their efforts.

Either way, you don't have any interest in taking them seriously, so imagine for a moment how much energy anyone should spend trying to convince you otherwise.

I'm plenty sure that there will be marches in the cold months. The numbers in the parks will vary, and I think the expectation that they many shrink some is not rocket science. Seriously, what's so noteworthy about that? People give what they can with their time and people choose their own limits.

You want it to to mean something cowardly about conviction that some will leave? Then you'd better be ready to offer equal respect for those who stay. There will be plenty.

A
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T
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:58 pm
Can't embed because it's not youtube, but here is a video from the Media Research Center, a conservative group that if you trace the parent group, and the parent parent group, you eventually arrive at the Heritage Foundation.

MRC visits #OccupyDC in McPherson Square and Freedom Plaza

They sent a camera to both camps in DC to see how people felt about the winter coming. They were polite, and the people the interviewed weren't the broken spirits that many describe (read: hope for).

I'll also share some tweets/facebook posts from my friend Sophie, who has been in McPherson Square for three weeks. She has a full time job, and camps there at night as well as attends day of action events. Regarding weather:

Oct 27 - "We thanked the DC police for not being like the cops in those cities. I shook an officer's hand and he nodded and said "We're for you." I replied, "We're for you, sir." Then I held back tears on the march back back to Mcpherson."

Oct 28 - "Not gonna lie you guys, I'm worried about the snow this weekend"

Oct 29 - "Winterization friends to the rescue!"

Oct 29 - "Damn straight. #inittowinit RT @WeOccupyAmerica: Snow falling now at #OccupyDC. Nobody is leaving."

Oct 29 - "Puts things in perspective. Snow is nothing. #occupydenver raid tear gas, rubber bullets. Watch live: http://t.co/QjFDPn1R"

Oct 29 - "I've never been so cold and so happy at the same time. Bring on the winter. #occupydc #occupykst #ows #occupytogether #occupyeverything"

Nov 1 - "It's our one month anniversary (3 weeks for me)! Celebration going strong. I am a part of something amazing."

I've donated some camping supplies, and I'm helping her find a winter tent.

A
R
There will be tents in the winter
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 08:33 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

wandeljw wrote:

I was thinking about the 99% concept. Does that have any more credibility than the moral majority or the silent majority?

Sure it does.

Think of the logical order of the two groups. They are quite different. In the case of the Moral Majority, the distinction is based on subjective beliefs. In the case of the 99% it's a objective distinction by income. In the case of the the MM, the distinction asserts a pretty rigid social/political platform--the exact thing that #Occupy is criticized for not having.

Think about it, what would the 99% look like? Would it be uniform in it's thoughts and feelings, or would it be diverse, and even divergent? In this regard, the 99% mantra of #occupy is probably one of the best social cross-sections of our culture to emerge in a long time. This certainly in spite of many who'd like to reduce this to a caricature of just a bunch of young jobless hippies no matter how diverse the crowds actually are.

A
R
T


Isn't that a problem if they lack uniformity? What viewpoint do they actually represent? Does the 99% share a uniform objective?
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 09:09 am
Their official website is calling for a general strike in Oakland tomorrow.

Quote:
While we are calling for a general strike, we are also calling for much more. People who organize out of their neighborhoods, schools, community organizations, affinity groups, workplaces and families are encouraged to self organize in a way that allows them to participate in shutting down the city in whatever manner they are comfortable with and capable of.


One supporter posted his hope that law enforcement would cooperate and also call in sick, but it was this reply that made me LOL...

Quote:
Please send me the addresses of those who will be at the protest while the police are not working.

Thanks!





0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 12:54 pm
An open letter from the Oakland Police.

Quote:
AN OPEN LETTER TO THE CITIZENS OF OAKLAND FROM THE OAKLAND POLICE OFFICERS’ ASSOCIATION
1 November 2011 – Oakland, Ca.[/color]

We represent the 645 police officers who work hard every day to protect the citizens of Oakland. We, too, are the 99% fighting for better working conditions, fair treatment and the ability to provide a living for our children and families. We are severely understaffed with many City beats remaining unprotected by police during the day and evening hours.

As your police officers, we are confused.

On Tuesday, October 25th, we were ordered by Mayor Quan to clear out the encampments at Frank Ogawa Plaza and to keep protesters out of the Plaza. We performed the job that the Mayor’s Administration asked us to do, being fully aware that past protests in Oakland have resulted in rioting, violence and destruction of property.

Then, on Wednesday, October 26th, the Mayor allowed protesters back in – to camp out at the very place they were evacuated from the day before.

To add to the confusion, the Administration issued a memo on Friday, October 28th to all City workers in support of the “Stop Work” strike scheduled for Wednesday, giving all employees, except for police officers, permission to take the day off.

That’s hundreds of City workers encouraged to take off work to participate in the protest against “the establishment.” But aren’t the Mayor and her Administration part of the establishment they are paying City employees to protest? Is it the City’s intention to have City employees on both sides of a skirmish line?

It is all very confusing to us.

Meanwhile, a message has been sent to all police officers: Everyone, including those who have the day off, must show up for work on Wednesday. This is also being paid for by Oakland taxpayers. Last week’s events alone cost Oakland taxpayers over $1 million.

The Mayor and her Administration are beefing up police presence for Wednesday’s work strike they are encouraging and even “staffing,” spending hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars for additional police presence – at a time when the Mayor is also asking Oakland residents to vote on an $80 parcel tax to bail out the City’s failing finances.

All of these mixed messages are confusing.

We love Oakland and just want to do our jobs to protect Oakland residents. We respectfully ask the citizens of Oakland to join us in demanding that our City officials, including Mayor Quan, make sound decisions and take responsibility for these decisions. Oakland is struggling – we need real leaders NOW who will step up and lead – not send mixed messages. Thank you for listening.


source

Seems their beef is with the Mayor, not the protesters.

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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 01:51 pm
@failures art,
Occupy contends that not only does it represent 99% of Americans, it consists of 99% of Americans.

Clearly the latter is not true.

That it represents 99% of Americans is a conceit, just as it was that the Moral Majority represented all moral Americans

The mere fact that the entirety of the population can be divided into two groups based on a specific income level, doesn't result in homogenization of the two groups...particularly when one of them is said to consist of 99% of the population.

The division can be made on the basis of age where one group below 104 years of age consists of 99% of the population, and the other, 104 and older, represents 1%.

While obviously the group of Americans under 104 have certain shared interests it would be ridiculous to suggest that an organization or loosely organize movement might represent the primary interests of all of them.

The same is true with Occupy.

By virue of the income criteria, I fall within the so called 99%, but this hardly means that my interests are 100% aligned with all of my fellow members.

It would be the height of arrogance to assert that indeed Occupy represents my interests, but I simply do not want to admit it because of some fanciful longing I have to be considered a billionaire.

The mere fact that the 99% is as diverse as you suggest reinforces the reality that Occupy does not represent it.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 01:52 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Isn't that a problem if they lack uniformity? What viewpoint do they actually represent? Does the 99% share a uniform objective?

In my opinion, it's no greater concern than the fact that the United States as a whole lacks uniformity. I believe it's more important that people are finding a way for their thoughts and feelings to be heard. There are many places you will find overlapping interests, but even more basic than the idea of economic disparity, are feelings of disenfranchisement.

As is right now, we see people talking about "what do they want," and frankly a conversation about what we want shouldn't be such a weird place to be. Better, I believe a diverse, non-convergent voice that is the people, than a very focused and outlined voice that is against them.

A
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T
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 01:53 pm
@failures art,
Yes it does: Government, not billionaires.

DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 01:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

So no job and no benefits is a winning strategy over taking a job with no benefits. How do such smart employees feed themselves and their families while they're pressing their advantage?

As I said... "if possible."
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 02:01 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
Does the 99% share a uniform objective?

Heck, the 1% couldn't share a uniform objective. 1% of the US population is something like three million people. I can't get six people to agree on where to go for dinner.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  4  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 02:05 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Occupy contends that not only does it represent 99% of Americans, it consists of 99% of Americans.

I don't think that it contends that at all.

It contends that 99% percent is getting screwed by the 1%. Other than that, I haven't seem them claim to talk for everybody, or consist of everybody. In fact, it seems to me that they acknowledge the opposite.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2011 02:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:

Occupy contends that not only does it represent 99% of Americans, it consists of 99% of Americans.


Do you have a source for this claim? Or is it one of those, yaknow, made-up things.

Cycloptichorn
 

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