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Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 11:44 am
@JPB,
Lets move more U.S. jobs to Mexico and China. That will show the crybaby sob's who is in charge.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 11:49 am
When Nazism comes to America it ain't gonna be purty!
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:04 pm
Good info!

0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:10 pm
To quote a friend from NZ who has been observing:

Quote:
I've been having this discussion with many people, and I'm fascinated by the fact that so many seem to define the relative usefulness of the protest in terms of having a stated list of demands (not even goals or ends, but some kind of programmatic vision), whereas I'm regarding that even this small vision now, even if it went not further (and I really hope it does) is a modeling of citizens' democracy - ironically, to my mind, it's where enfranchised participation and the value of governmentality can exist at a juncture between supposed political factions. Is it a cultural thing that people in the US regard protests as contingent upon defined bullet points? (I'm being a sincere foreigner with this question, I'm not trolling)


I think he has a point. Since when is protest only meaningful/important if it is successful? Moreover, do we even observe all the ways in which protest has an effect? I'd say that citizens creating their own platform to promote the things they care about is meaningful, and that the complacent mentality of it won't accomplish anything, so I'll stay home is exactly the mentality bred into us by those who do not wish for their power or actions to be challenged.

A
R
T
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:16 pm
@Linkat,
Quote:
but I see the movement as incoherent and scattershot.


Quote:
yes i kind of agree - it just seems disorganized or what are they trying to actually accomplish?


It seems that they have the rapt attention of the NYPD and I'm sure some more wolves, umm folks further up the chain.

0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:24 pm
Whether you see a organized goal or not, I think the reflex is telling. That gives those not present something meaningful to consider about the narratives being created.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:27 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
I'd say that citizens creating their own platform to promote the things they care about is meaningful, and that the complacent mentality of it won't accomplish anything, so I'll stay home is exactly the mentality bred into us by those who do not wish for their power or actions to be challenged.


Well said, and the media is assisting whom by showing the protesters in the worst light?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:34 pm
@Builder,
Both you and failures art Have raised some good points.

I point out to others that I come in contact with, how news channels will more often than not broadcast what their bias views allow them!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:42 pm
@failures art,
I think there are two obvious extremes, and this falls somewhere in the middle thus far.

Extreme #1: An organized protest with a specific goal, that accomplishes something big. I'm thinking civil rights marches as an example.

Extreme #2: Generalized expressions of frustration. London riots, for example.

I'm much more partial to extreme #1, probably obviously, while also recognizing that not all protests can be that focused and effective. I've been a part of a lot of protests.

I'm not anti-OWS but I'm kind of meh. If something comes out of it, cool. As-is, whatevs. That goes both for demonizing and lionizing reactions. (I'd argue against both.)
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:49 pm
It seems that occupy wall street is coming together!


0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 03:54 pm
Ghandi march to the sea was a protest against english oppression. There were no stated goals, no demands. If anything his point was to show that Indians need not obey the outrageous and unjust laws of the British.

Demonstration itself is a powerful thing.

A
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 04:01 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
If anything his point was to show that Indians need not obey the outrageous and unjust laws of the British.


Careful, Art, you're getting dangerously close to holding a conviction. Smile

Seriously though, what is the physical focus of the ire of WS Protestors in cities like Washington, DC?



reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 04:04 pm
@failures art,
Very Good point!


0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 04:16 pm
@failures art,
Well, yes, it was very clear that it was anti-British rule. Autonomy.

Whose outrageous and unjust laws is this protesting?

That's exactly my problem with this. Demonstration of WHAT?

It's way too big and diffuse to have any clear message.

Without a clear message, it carries no power.

Edit: more on the organization and message, there (more specific than anti-British rule):

Quote:
The Salt Satyagraha, which began with the Dandi March on March 12, 1930, was an important part of the Indian independence movement. It was a campaign of nonviolent protest against the British salt monopoly in colonial India, and triggered the wider Civil Disobedience Movement. This was the most significant organized challenge to British authority since the Non-cooperation movement of 1920–22, and directly followed the Purna Swaraj declaration of independence by the Indian National Congress on January 26, 1930. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (commonly called Mahatma Gandhi) led the Dandi march from his base, Sabarmati Ashram near Ahmedabad, to the sea coast near the village of Dandi. As he continued on this 24 day, 240 mile (390 km) march to produce salt without paying the tax, growing numbers of Indians joined him along the way. When Gandhi broke the salt laws at 6:30 am on April 6, 1930, it sparked large scale acts of civil disobedience against the British Raj salt laws by millions of Indians.[1] The campaign had a significant effect on changing world and British attitudes toward Indian independence[2][3] and caused large numbers of Indians to join the fight for the first time.


(Emphasis mine.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 04:34 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
Whose outrageous and unjust laws is this protesting?


That's exactly my problem with this. Demonstration of WHAT?

It's way too big and diffuse to have any clear message.

Without a clear message, it carries no power.[/quote]

The very ones that are either in place that allow the obscene voraciousness of Wall St or the ones that aren't in place to control the voraciousness of Wall St.

Nobody is too big to fail. Failure is exactly what the marketplace demands as a way to remove the unfit, that is, until the "marketplace" itself is shown to be unfit.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 04:49 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
until the "marketplace" itself is shown to be unfit.


It seems that the world has come to an understanding that the economic system is broken. It is a global problem when you have a plutocracy!

The US is just a little slow to catch on!


0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 05:11 pm
This one could be very important to you!

0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 06:09 pm
Another very important video!


0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 07:27 pm
http://youtu.be/uZmPWcLQ1Mk

The movement/cause is for anyone who is not happy with current circumstances. This is from a Ron Paul supporter. Worth a look.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2011 07:55 pm
@sozobe,
I think one of the powerful messages coming out is that people are not complacent in the "painful cuts" and "shared sacrifices" rhetoric that continues and is being used to justify program cuts without asking the wealthiest 1% to sacrifice anything.

I feel the OWS protests are a rejection of these messages.

A
R
T
 

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