47
   

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:11 am
@H2O MAN,
Is that anything like you being a waterboy for Trump?
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:25 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I am in the middle of it on a regular basis. I am in New York and have had my life disrupted by them. My views are not based on right wing yammerings, they are based on what I have heard....from the protesters, and in New York the local media is constantly showing them and giving them more than a fair amount of time and exposure to speak up. It's a decidedly liberal media market here, so they are getting their best opportunity and still blowing it. I have spoken directly to a few (5 at present) and they all have different ideas what they are there for.

Part of their alleged agenda is to stay overnight in the park, I am not expecting all of them to do it all the time, but most haven't even done it once.

BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:48 am
@Sturgis,
October 30, 2011
Volunteer attorneys steer Occupy protesters through the legal system
By Tony Pugh | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON — As copycat Occupy Wall Street encampments around the country confront the inevitable legal tangles that come with a nationwide sit-in style protest, a growing army of First Amendment-loving lawyers is shepherding the demonstrators through the legal system at no charge.

Growing numbers of protesters are being arrested for trespassing, failure to disperse and disobeying a lawful order, as city after city confronts the question of whether individual rights to free speech and assembly include the right to camp out on public property.

The resulting legal skirmishes have spurred the largest mobilization of pro bono protest attorneys since the anti-war movement of the 1960s and '70s.

"It's probably bigger than the anti-war movement, because there are so many simultaneous demonstrations. I've never seen anything like it," said Carol Sobel, co-chair of the Mass Defense Committee of the National Lawyers Guild.

Some of the volunteer lawyers draft and file motions or simply monitor the protests as legal observers. Some advise the activists on how to negotiate with city leaders. Others show up in court — usually on short notice — to represent jailed protesters at their initial court appearances.

Just last week, Los Angeles police tried to disperse Occupy Los Angeles protesters who put up tents at a street corner along the motorcade route of President Barack Obama, who was in town for a series of fundraisers. After an observer called Sobel, she told the group to stay put, arguing that they were being singled out for unfair treatment since the street wasn't being shut down, no businesses were asked to close and other pedestrians weren't being searched or removed.

"They stood their ground, the president came and went and there was no problem. But there's always that constant pushback," Sobel said. "That's why the lawyers are so critical, because they can give information to the protesters and vigorously arm them with the law. And the law's on their side."

Many of the volunteer barristers are members of the guild, a liberal group that has defended the First Amendment rights of thousands of protesters and controversial figures since 1937.

However, attorneys with no guild affiliation or history of protest involvement are also coming forward to help in the estimated 200 U.S. cities where "occupy" protests have sprung up to oppose economic inequality and corporate greed.

Criminal defense attorney Daphne Pattison Silverman of Houston was watching a television interview with a guild lawyer for the Wall Street protesters when she decided she wanted to help.

"I just felt completely energized and I could just tell this was an organization that was worth looking into," she said.

In addition to starting a local guild chapter in Houston, Silverman has recruited 10 other lawyers to assist the Occupy Houston protesters.

A former attorney in the Navy's Judge Advocate General's Corps, Silverman chafes at any perceived contradiction involving her past military service and her current work on behalf of government protesters.

"To me, the same oath I took in the military to support and defend the Constitution is the same oath I take as a criminal lawyer, and now as a budding First Amendment lawyer," she said, adding that her work sometimes requires "telling the government that they've made a mistake."

With Silverman's counsel, Occupy Houston demonstrators negotiated an agreement with city leaders that allows them to use sleeping bags — but not tents — during overnight stays on public property. Silverman said she won't negotiate directly for the protesters.

"There are plenty of very educated (protesters) who are highly capable of doing their own negotiations. They just need a little encouragement and a little knowledge of what their rights are and where they need to ask for exceptions," she said.

Colorado public defender Eric Sims represents an Occupy Denver protester accused of disobeying a lawful order during a mass arrest by Denver police on Oct 15.

Sims was one of about two dozen attorneys who attended a Colorado Criminal Defense Bar meeting that sought volunteer help for the jailed protesters. He said some 25 other attorneys also volunteered but did not attend.

"I totally sympathize with (the protesters)," Sims said. "And I thought they were courageous because, Lord knows, I'm not going to get arrested (while demonstrating) and risk my law license."

While his heart is with the protesters, Sims said his support for free speech and freedom of assembly crosses ideological lines.

"Even if it was the other end of the spectrum with the tea baggers, if they had gotten arrested the way these kids did, I'd represent them, too," Sims said.

Before he could take the protester's case, Sims had to get permission from his office. He won't be allowed to use work equipment, resources or time for the protester's case. And any court appearances Sims makes for his client will be done on his vacation time.

In Cincinnati, attorney Jennifer Kinsley needs a computer spreadsheet to keep track of the estimated 200 Occupy Cincinnati protesters she's representing pro bono. On Monday, she filed not-guilty pleas for more than 40 who were charged with criminal trespassing.

Since Oct. 9, Kinsley said, Cincinnati police have issued more than 270 criminal citations to the protesters — mainly for being in a city park after hours.

Kinsley isn't a guild lawyer, but she's no stranger to civil rights cases. In recent years she has sued to protect homeless people facing removal from a makeshift encampment and juvenile offenders housed in substandard prison conditions. She even championed the free speech rights of exotic dancers.

"I can't stay away from a civil rights case in this city," Kinsley said. "My heart will not let me. ... Cincinnati has a very storied history of trampling on people's rights and there is much, much work for me in this town."

In a federal civil rights lawsuit filed a week ago, Kinsley and fellow volunteer attorney J. Robert Linneman argued that a city park board rule that closes parks from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. is unconstitutional.

"Basically during those hours there's no public forum where free speech can occur," Kinsley said. "So our defense in the criminal cases will be similar to the constitutional issues that we've raised in the federal case."

The same issue has created tension with police in cities such as Denver, Atlanta, and most recently in Oakland, Calif., where more than 100 Occupy Oakland protesters were arrested Tuesday in a heated predawn clash with police for failing to leave a downtown plaza after it closed for the night.

Guild attorney Rachel Lederman, who's representing the Oakland protesters, said the police action was "illegal and unconstitutional" and violated "almost every term" of the department's crowd-control policy. "It was just complete overkill to come in with a huge assault force," Lederman said. Oakland police said the arrests were necessary to address public health and safety concerns.

Kinsley's lawsuit argues that the First Amendment right to free assembly doesn't "turn off" at a certain time. Local governments can place restrictions on those rights, but they have to meet a constitutional test, Kinsley said. Their suit argues that denying protesters a permit to stay after hours and closing city parks from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. violates the protesters' rights to free expression, speech, assembly and association.

But Peter Scheer, director of the First Amendment Coalition in San Raphael, Calif., said he thinks the lawsuit faces an uphill battle.

"It's hard to find in the history of the First Amendment anything that speaks to camping out as an aspect of assembly," Scheer said. "... In other words, you really can't win a lawsuit on the basis of defective (permit-granting) procedures if perfect procedures would still not let you do what you wish to do. That's what I see as a vulnerability in their claim."

Kinsley isn't deterred.

"What if we had shut the civil rights movement off after three days?" she asked. "Would we have had the Civil Rights Act? Would we have had Martin Luther King Jr.? Would we have had progress? No."

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/10/30/128688/volunteer-attorneys-steer-protesters.html#ixzz1cNmwDjEF
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 11:59 am
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Thanks for sharing that interesting report on the support of protesters from the legal profession. I'm glad to see lawyers supporting our first amendment rights.
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Posted on Sat, Oct. 29, 2011
Protesters target Koch Industries in Wichita
BY FRED MANN
The Wichita Eagle

About 100 protesters marched on Koch Industries' headquarters near 37th North and Oliver Saturday afternoon.

They chanted "Main Street, not Wall Street" and "Pay your share" as they marched.

They also carried signs that explained why they were marching:

"I Can't Afford to Buy My Own Politician. I'm part of the 99 percent," one sign said.

"Let the Voice of the People Be Heard," said another.

The marchers were met at Koch headquarters by about 20 Koch defenders, who carried signs of their own:

"Blame Politicians, Not Corporations" said one.

"I Stand for Charles and David Koch, Who Stand for Principled Entrepreneurship and Freedom, and Against Crony Capitalism," said another.

A few members of the two groups exchanged words briefly after they came together, but there was no violence. Wichita police cars patrolled the area.

The protest was sponsored by Kansans United in Voice & Spirit.

"I'm tired of 80 percent of the people only having 7 percent of the wealth of this county," said Ramona Becker, a protester from Wichita. "We used to all have a fair chance in this country, and that's not true anymore. The American Dream has gone away. No matter how hard people work, they can't make it, because there's only so much money to go around and only a few people have it."

Bob Weeks, who organized the counter-protest, said his group came out to support the company.

"Many of us admire Charles Koch for supporting economic freedom and capitalism throughout the years," Weeks said.

Koch Industries responded with a written statement from company spokesperson Melissa Cohlmia.

It said the company respected the protesters' rights of free speech and peaceful assembly.

It also said: "Rather than protest an American company that employs 50,000 Americans, including more than 2,600 Kansans, we encourage citizens to turn their attention to the burden of excessive government spending, uncontrolled debt and onerous regulations that are crippling our nation.

"As we have for decades, Koch's efforts will continue to be focused on producing products that people want and need, while promoting policies that will help grow our economy, foster free enterprise and create American jobs. We believe these goals are supported by most Americans and are critical to our nation's future."

The protesters marched away from Koch headquarters after about 15 minutes.

Koch had blocked entrances to company property.

They also videotaped and photographed protesters, who waved at the cameras.

Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2011/10/29/2082550/protesters-target-koch-industries.html#ixzz1cNqVTVOP
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:20 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Both sides seems to have accomplished what they were there for; that's how it's supposed to work: no violence.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:36 pm
Went by the Occupy Chicago protest today. The dozen or so people there weren't occupying much more than a street corner opposite the Board of Trade building. One guy had a plastic barrell-type thing that he was banging on like a drum. All in all, a pretty dispirited looking bunch. Even the signs weren't terribly clever. Maybe everybody else was out trick-or-treating.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
All in all, a pretty dispirited looking bunch. Even the signs weren't terribly clever. Maybe everybody else was out trick-or-treating.
The weather is good cold, and Americans lack leaders. At some point we are going to have to revisit our conclusion that we dont need leaders, but it will not happen before this fizzles.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  5  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
A black woman on my train was talking about how the Chicago protestors offended her the other day. They were asking her to join the protest and she said she was not interested.
Protestor: "But we are protesting so that you can get a job!"
Woman: "I have a job!"
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:54 pm
As I understand it, part of the reason these people are protesting is because they want jobs.
There are jobs available right now, starting pay is 30 to 40k per year, with paid training
I am willing to bet that if you offered those jobs, not one of those protesters would accept.
Right here in KY there are over 500 jobs listed in the state unemployment website, all of them within 50 miles of my house. They have starting wages from minimum wage to $21.50 per hour.
So these protesters can get jobs, but the hobs aren't going to be handed to them, they have to go to the job.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 12:56 pm
@mysteryman,
You're making a lot of assumptions based on your observations. How did you arrive at these facts? Have you personally offered them jobs?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 01:00 pm
@mysteryman,
Interesting observation.

And very different to the protests of Occupy elsewhere (in the world).
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 01:49 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
So these protesters can get jobs, but the hobs aren't going to be handed to them, they have to go to the job


as long as you ignore:

all the employers who will not hire someone who does not already have a job

all the employers who will not hire anyone over the age of 50, and dropping

all the employers who will not hire anyone they would need to spend any money on for training

all the employers who will not hire anyone who demands enough wage to support themselves, much less a family

all the employers who will not hire an american if they can get away with not, preferring foreigners, legal or illegal because they are easier to cheat and unload.

all the employers who will not hire if at all possible employees, instead going for temps and contractors so that they can avoid all benefits and some of the taxes.
TheLeapist
 
  3  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 02:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
all the employers who will not hire if at all possible employees, instead going for temps and contractors so that they can avoid all benefits and some of the taxes.
Excellent points. Where I work they don't allow us to go to full time. Everyone works just under because they don't want to pay benefits to everyone. Which is not a big deal for me because I'm a single still in college. But this simply can't do for many many people.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 02:40 pm
@TheLeapist,
Quote:
Where I work they don't allow us to go to full time.


My oversight....this that you speak of is a huge problem. Along the same lines is hiring a lot more people than they need so that they can keep the demands for pay raises down and also get a body any time they want it on short notice. I have heard people at Walmart say that they have trouble getting scheduled for any more that 15 hours, and if they want to work more then they need to say yes every time they get a short notice call to come to work. Europeans like Walter have no concept of how thoroughly american employers push the workers around...it is a depth of exploitation that EU law does not allow.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 02:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
it happens here in Canada too, but at least we have primary healthcare

i'm a single guy, i'd be happy with 3o hours a week at around 12 bucks an hour and no extra benefits
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 02:58 pm
@mysteryman,
Mysterman, you are an odd one to be choosing the side of the employers, you who were effectively fired for an on the job accident, and who was unemployed for months after. Did you take a pay cut too? I bet you did.

You might what to reexamine who your friends are....
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 03:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Must I personally offer each of them a job to be able to coment on what I see?

I just went to the NYTimes website and there are several hundred jobs listed.
Roadrunner.com in NY has several hundred more.
The internet is available to the protesters, and there are many job search engines available.

I thought you were smarter than that.
You know as well as I do that nobody is going to take these protesters by the hand, if they want jobs they need to compete for them, just like everyone else has had to.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 03:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
all the employers who will not hire someone who does not already have a job


I dont know how many employers like that there are, so I will take your word that they exist.
But that is all the more reason to take any job you can get, to at least getr your foot in the door.

Quote:
all the employers who will not hire anyone over the age of 50, and dropping


I agree, this is a problem. However, those jobs do exist, they are just harder to find.

Quote:
all the employers who will not hire anyone they would need to spend any money on for training


I must disagree here.
There are hundreds of employers that will not only pay for training, they will also pay you while they train you.

Quote:
all the employers who will not hire anyone who demands enough wage to support themselves, much less a family


Again, I dont know that this is true.
Every employer that I have ever dealt with pays enough to support my family.


Quote:
all the employers who will not hire an american if they can get away with not, preferring foreigners, legal or illegal because they are easier to cheat and unload.


or most likely its because Americans refuse to do the job.


Quote:
all the employers who will not hire if at all possible employees, instead going for temps and contractors so that they can avoid all benefits and some of the taxes.


And why do you think you are entitled to benefits?
If someone hires you to work, and offers to pay you $2500 a month, then as long as you get that you arent entitled to anything else.
No employer has to provide benefits of any kind.
By benefits I mean 401k, health insurance, etc.



DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2011 03:36 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Must I personally offer each of them a job to be able to coment on what I see?

I just went to the NYTimes website and there are several hundred jobs listed.
Roadrunner.com in NY has several hundred more.
The internet is available to the protesters, and there are many job search engines available.

I thought you were smarter than that.
You know as well as I do that nobody is going to take these protesters by the hand, if they want jobs they need to compete for them, just like everyone else has had to.

Well, if we're going to open the door to anecdotes....

A job listing does not necessarily mean that there's an actual job opening.

Had an engineer friend who was out of work for a while. He'd apply and get called in for interviews for positions that were already filled. Filled by visa workers, or somesuch, but filled. There was a legal requirement to interview applicants for the job, but no legal requirement to fill the job from those interviewed.

He learned to ask "is this position already filled" first thing, in order to avoid wasting his time.
 

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