Is dating someone who's a different race okay?

@Eorl,

Good post, Eorl.

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@GracieGirl,

Your dad is also overly protective because he knows what it's like to be a 16 or 17 year old boy. That tends to make most dads rather protective of their daughters. Laughing

I'm glad your friends Krystal and Ty enjoy being together, and I am sorry they are getting some negative reactions to their relationship. That is what I've been talking about, and why parents might be protective of their children--so they won't be the targets of other people's crap about inter-racial dating. It's good that it doesn't bother Krystal and Ty too much.

Has Krystal asked her mom why she feels weird about the relationship now that she and Ty are dating? It might be good if they openly and honestly discussed it with each other. It's possibly that Krystal's mom might not even be sure why she's somewhat uncomfortable with the relationship now--maybe inter-racial dating is just too unfamiliar for her, so it makes her uneasy. Peoples' feelings on these matters, particularly when it pertains to their children, can be rather complex, complicated, and even conflicted. It would be interesting to know how Krystal's mom does feel.

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Gracie, this is a tangent to your thread, but hey, it's had many already!

I was born in and lived off and on for decades in Los Angeles. Nearing age 60, I moved to a small coastal city in northern california. I was stunned by how white it was/is. I had made my decision to move there fairly fast and so didn't know the area that well.

By white, I mean real white (which I happen to be myself). Not many hispanics. Extremely few asian americans. Miniscule number of african americans. There is a sizeable native american population, and that would be my guess as the next biggest number to white. This took getting used to, just the paleness itself, but also the lack of, er, what to call it, cultural oomph, sizzle, verve.

My niece, the person I love most in the world, has an irish american father and her mother was from a coastal country in Africa. She visited me up north several years in a row for days or a week or more at a time. We are very dear to each other and fairly expressive of this. She helped me out, in that I am clumsy getting around because of eye problems and she would make sure I saw a curb coming, that sort of thing. Sometimes we held on for a short stretch of time when we were out walking, just because we were so glad to get to talk again. We sometimes got treated a little funny - but maybe we were just interesting - older white woman, beautiful black teen, hugging. Or, maybe racist stuff. But my strongest memory was of a time I wasn't with her.

My business partner had a wonderful doberman dog, gorgeous and sweet dog, and one of my niece's efforts to be part of our gallery/design firm for her visit was to walk the dog. She was probably thirteen then, or maybe twelve. She came back and told us that some guy in a red truck had followed her and was saying dirty things to her. Even she knew that he thought she must be a hooker.
Well, that was chilling.

That is a point toward Firefly's view in that this is just one example of some real scum out there driving around or otherwise existing. Boy, did I feel protective of my niece. She's grown up now and strong in many ways. Took a guy to court and won re an assault (no, not rape) at a friend's house. I am so proud.

Now I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and it has a more diverse population, so I'm more comfortable, but not as comfortable re diversity as I was back in LA.

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@ossobuco,

Un huh. Sometimes a Doberman is a nice thing to have along on a walk.

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I think it's OK to date someone of a different race than yourself. My youngest son dated a girl from Greece, rather dark skinned girl and very pretty. I never said a word, treated her like my own kids. He dated a girl from Japan, very pretty. Same thing. He married a Polish Catholic.

My oldest son married an attorney from Mexico. Can't believe how happy those t wo are.

My great grandfather immigrated to U.S. from Ireland in 1800's, married a Cherokee Indian girl and they had 7 kids. Later on in the geneology it notes that other Indian girls were wed into this (Name was May) family.

I like what has been inherited from those Indians. One of my uncles is 6', 5".
They have a certain kind of grace, the way they move, I notice.

Anyway, I don't think a parent has to get too excited over the daughter datinga black guy. She'll date him, no matter what they say.

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@roger,

Nobody ever thinks of dobies as scaredy cats...

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

No, it really doesn't look clearer to me. We are using different definitions of racism--which means we aren't both talking about the same thing.The definition of racism I am using is the one more more generally used and agreed upon and it refers to the prejudicial attitudes people hold, or the discriminatory or abusive behavior people display, toward others of different racial groups.

The definition you are using seems to deem as racist any visible perception of racial differences, and I simply cannot agree with that definition--it fails to take into account the social learning/conditioning that takes place in a culture regarding race, and the related perception of visible racial differences that occurs as a consequence of such social learning.

The whole point of "the race myth" is that you can't assume any racial differences from skin tone alone. The social/conditioning you refer to IS RACISM.

Quote:

Similarly, in the example you gave, I would not consider every Christian who prefers not to date Jews to be an anti-Semite. If Christianity is a significant factor in one's life.

I wrote Aryan/Jew not Christian/Jew for a reason. Aryans define jewishness in terms of genetics, not religion.

Quote:

I am definitely not "ok with racism"--as I define racism. I can understand it, mainly in terms of social conditioning--the learning and accepting of negative stereotypes toward racial groups other than one's own.

Wikipedia's definition: Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people's traits and capacities that are entirely due to their race, however defined, and that, as a consequence, racial discrimination (i.e. different treatment of those people, both socially and legally) is justified.

Therefore when the mother says, I'd rather you found a white boy, she is being racist by that definition. She instructs her child to discriminate between potential dates based on skin colour alone.

Quote:

Not everyone in the world wants to see all of mankind homogenized in one large melting. There are positive and enriching aspects to diversity and "differentness".

That implies that I'd support only mating with opposite skin colours and outside of their own culture. Straw man argument.

Quote:

But, we both seem to agree that there is nothing wrong with dating someone from a racial group that is different than our own.

Indeed we do. Smile

Perhaps we all need to watch "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" again. Are we really still back there?

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@firefly,

...also from Wikipedia:

"This emphasis on culture corresponds to the modern mainstream definition of racism: "Racism does not originate from the existence of ‘races’. It creates them through a process of social division into categories."

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@Eorl,

People always put others into categories. Maybe apes do too, what do I know.

Parents often but not always want to protect their children.

I think that in many places, maybe everywhere but some way less than others, racism as such still exists - - and also believe that some parents are protective for reasons other than racism. I will agree with Eorl that some racism is likely in that kind of example, but we don't know that in any given instance.

George on a2k and I, also on a2k, happen to be reading Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink, around the same time. He may have finished it by now. I recommend it as a read.
I have liked Gladwell for a long time, but the beginning of the book put me a bit off, too rah rah, me no rah rah fan. However, as he got into detailing, I forgot all that and got interested.

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@ossobuco,

How odd. I'm in the middle of his Tipping Point. It's okay, but I think he's more impressed with it than I. If you haven't read that one, let me know and I'll toss it in the little book stack I'm setting up in your name.

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@roger,

Haven't read it. Have only read his new yorker articles before this.

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C'mon, you people! Get off this thread! You're taking up very valuable space that OmSigDAVID and BillRM could be fruitfully using to air their views. This is THEIR thread, dammit!

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@Eorl,

Quote:

I wrote Aryan/Jew not Christian/Jew for a reason. Aryans define jewishness in terms of genetics, not religion.

Jews also define "Jewishness" in terms of genetics--Jews are an ethno-religious group--the religious identity/ancestral heritage is passed from a Jewish mother to her child at birth--one is therefore born Jewish. The children born to a Jewish mother are considered to be Jewish, by virtue of ethnic heritage, regardless of whether or not they practice the religion.

Quote:

Wikipedia's definition: Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people's traits and capacities that are entirely due to their race, however defined, and that, as a consequence, racial discrimination (i.e. different treatment of those people, both socially and legally) is justified.

Therefore when the mother says, I'd rather you found a white boy, she is being racist by that definition. She instructs her child to discriminate between potential dates based on skin colour alone.

The definition from Wikipedia does not infer that all distinctions between racial groups--such as those that can be made on the basis of simple visual perception of observable physical differences--would be considered racist. The distinguishing observable physical differences between racial groups do not imply differences in traits or ability for members of those groups--they are no different than observable physical differences in gender, height, eye color, etc.

The mother was telling her daughter to date a boy who looked like her, and other members of the family--i.e. someone of the same skin color, a Caucasian. That does not mean that the mother views members of other racial groups as possessing traits, attributes, or capacities that she views as being inferior or undesirable in any way. She may be visually discriminating on the basis of skin color--simply recognizing the fact that there perceivable differences in skin color--but that does not mean she is discriminatory in the sense of being biased and racist. There are many reasons that parents want their children to date someone from racial/cultural/ethnic/religious groups similar to themselves
and you lack substantial information to conclude whether or not this woman is a racist.

Racism does exist, and the U.S. has a rather long history of racial discrimination, and a good deal of racist thinking and racial animosity still exists in this country. Inter-racial dating, while more common than it was several decades ago, is still not widely practiced. So, inter-racial couples still tend to attract notice, and that would be very true in the enclosed environment of a high school, particularly a high school which is predominantly of one race. And some of the attention that the inter-racial couple attracts is going to be negative and that can generate behaviors which could be very unpleasant, or nasty, or even threatening, toward one or both members of that couple. The inter-racial couple could experience things as mild as stares or remarks, or more severe forms of bullying or social ostracism, or even threats to their security and acts of violence. Hate crimes still occur here. What parent of a high school student might not realistically consider the possible consequences to their child of an inter-racial relationship? And is it really fair, or even accurate, to label the parent who might be concerned about possible harm to their child a "racist"? I really don't think so.
While the mother of the white girl simply said, "Can't you find some nice white boys?", the mother of the African American boy might be very worried about her son's welfare if he became involved in such a relationship and she might actively pressure him against it, and his African American peers might be angry and resentful that he was abandoning his own racial group. There could be strong feelings of anxiety, suspicion, anger, and possibly even racism, operating within both racial groups, and not just one of them, toward this inter-racial couple. And that can put additional stress and conflict into the lives of this young inter-racial couple. Again, what concerned parent would not prefer that their child's life not be complicated by such factors, particularly while they are still in high school? Does this necessarily make them racists? I think not.

I understand the points you are trying to make Eorl, but I think you are failing to consider some of the realities a high school age inter-racial couple might face, and why parents, the parents on both sides, might want to discourage such relationships. If you think they are being racist, fine, that's your opinion. But I just don't agree with you.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Mmmm, I see that I did not make my point - that Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink, takes up the question of racism. It was so obvious to me at the time that that was my point. Rolls eyes at self.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Mmmm, I see that I did not make my point - that Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink, takes up the question of racism. It was so obvious to me at the time that that was my point. Rolls eyes at self.

Huh? What'd I say?

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

Not you, Andy. I was just rereading Roger's and my posts on Gladwell's books.

<oh, never mind..>

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@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

C'mon, you people! Get off this thread! You're taking up very valuable space that OmSigDAVID and BillRM could be fruitfully using
to air their views. This is THEIR thread, dammit!

The dispute between us was not entirely
off-topic, in that the topic partially concerned the freedom
of 13 year old people to date. We addressed that. It was relevant.

In point of fact,
Bill expressed his disagreement
with my answers to Gracie 's questions,
which were generally concerning the subject matter. Yes??

David

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Nobody ever thinks of dobies as scaredy cats...

Well, that is a RACIST statement,
right there, Osso. It implies that there is more than one race
of dog and that thay have different racial characteristics (bravery); obvious nonsense.

I coud never tell any difference between a Great Dane and a Chihuahua
nor a Frenchman and a Chinaman. Differences are all myth; just imaginary superstition.

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@firefly,

Perhaps if there really is a danger to kids in schools because of what you claim as "racial groups" existing, then perhaps seperate schools would be best all round? Seperate buses too perhaps? I'm just thinking of the kids here, so they don't get picked on.

Why can't you see how strongly you are reinforcing racism as an acceptible norm?

Sure, I can't prove the mother's motivations were racist, or racism based. It's possible that his skin tone would clash with her furniture, or her camera struggles reproducing dark colours so wedding photos ruined, but apart from that, I can't think of too many reasons that don't sit better in 80's South Africa than in the modern world.

What's stopping you from taking a serious look at what you are saying and realising how wrong you are? Look at the Wikipedia definition and that article I posted. Are they utterly wrong in your special apologist definition of racism?

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

When u referred to your classmates as being "idiots" I wondered Y u thawt that,
but then I remembered an incident. I was 13 when I returned to New York
from living in Arizona for 5 years. While going home from school on NYC buses,
I was extremely embarrassed at people of my age on those buses who acted in loud,
chaotic, frenzied manners, actually running in those buses, mindlessly yelling
and lightly hitting one another, on their way home from school.
I was ashamed to be considered to be one of them.

Haha! Wow, you were a really different kid. Im not ashamed to be a kid. Haha! (that sounds soo weird) but yeah, I think some kids are annoying. Loud, chaotic people annoy me too. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being loud and having fun sometimes but jesus there's a time and place, ya know? And in Math class in the middle of a test is NOT the time or place but try explaining that to the jerks at my school. Being loud on the bus doesnt bother me much though.

GracieGirl wrote:
Like Im mature and all, but sounds like you didnt act like a normal kid at all when you were my age. Did you have any kind of fun?

Just taking cabs to the movies, or trips to a gunnery rangein Arizona, or hanging around with my friends. When I was 14, I organized a conservative political club from students at school.I became fiercely libertarian (i.e., freedom-loving, well, I always was).
Going to good restaurants was also fun; I enjoyed that. I still do.
About 30 years ago, I organized a fine dining group for Manhattan,
the Opulent Mensan Special Interest Group.

Jeez, were you some kid of kid genius or something?Haha! Conservative political club? Like, what the heck is that?

GracieGirl wrote:
Sounds like you were super serious.

That was repeatedly brought to my attention, at the time.
I had no interest in kids' usual interests (sports, etc.; in school, I refused to participate in competitive athletics).
I remember when I was 12, in Arizona, my class in school was commanded to go to the school library and check out a book; any book, then to report on its contents a designated period of time thereafter.

I had trouble in finding one. Then I found an elementary book on nuclear physics, concerning the relationships between matter and energy, Einstein 's Theory of Relativity, and its irreconcilability with Quantum Mechanics. I loved it n took out more books on the same subjects
from the Phoenix Public Library.

By co-incidence, the following semester, their science class dealt with molecular phenomena. Because of my earlier research, I knew more than the teacher did, and I began to correct the teacher in class.That experience was UNIQUE; unheard of. The other students were astonished. Thay LOVED it; huge smiles. I suddenly became Mr. Popularity because one of them, one of the students, knew more than the teacher and was correcting him. Thay thought that (figuratively speaking) I was carrying THEIR Flag, representing them successfully against adults.Thay got their egos off, vicariously.
Disagreements between the teacher and myself were resolved by their checking an encyclopedia that we had in the classroom. That was fun. I learned that independent research can be fun.

I never correct the teacher. Not anymore at least. Im done being the school nerd. It may have been cool back then David but now, at my school, thats just a quick way to get yourself labeled as a nerd. P.S. You sound like a minature Albert Einstein. You were crazy smart.

GracieGirl wrote:
You were probably around adults all the time, huh?
For the first 7 years of my life, yes, a lot.
I noticed that older people, grandparent types, gave me no trouble, whereas from kids my own age, I occasionally had to defend myself; fistfights, but not ever with anyone over age 60.

Haha! Fistfighting with people over 60 is a big no-no David. I guess its a good thing they never gave you trouble, huh?

GracieGirl wrote:
I know Im not an adult. Im reminded everyday when I get in trouble for 'talking back' or 'having an additude'.
U did not indicate WHO gives u this trouble.
Whoever, it is: u still have the right of free expression.
Whether u choose to exercise it or not is your decision.
U have to live YOUR life by your own lights,
as YOU see the situation and u must live with the results.
U r the Captain of the Good Ship Gracie.

My dad's the main culprit. And he gave me life, so there's not much I can do when he 'gives me trouble', unless I wanna be grounded until Im 30. I wish my dad saw things the way you do. Life would be soo much more fun for me and I wouldnt have to spend most of my life in some sort of trouble. I had detention today at school. I dont know how I get myself into soo much trouble soo easily. Im a good kid! (Im actually semi-grounded at the moment)

If the trouble makers are public school teachers,
u might wanna remember that THAY work for YOU.
YOU don 't work for them. Thay are public servants. U r the public.
U might find it helpful to remember that thay r not above u,not super-human: thay are people like u, not better than u.I always bore that in mind in dealing with my employees, the teachers.

Awesome way to look at that! I love it! Those rotten teachers work for ME! Haha! Im soo gonna quote you in school tomorrow.

GracieGirl wrote:
I have to follow too many rules, how the heck could I see myself as a grown-up?
Some rules (not all rules) depend for their existence upon your WILLINGNESS to follow them.

Some r only bluffs; unenforcible.

My willingness doesnt matter. If I dont follow rules, I get in trouble. Us kids have no rights. We're slaves to our parents.

GracieGirl wrote:
That's something Im looking forward to though; being on my own and everything.
Freedom is good,
but wisdom requires u to ENJOY every age of your life
as much as u possibly can. When u r on your deathbed,
looking back, u shoud feel that u had as much fun in your life
as u possibly coud have, at EVERY age, in every circumstance.
Someone once said: "if it ain't fun, u r doing it rong."

Yea, you're right. Im enjoying my life. It's not soo bad. But I just know it'll be soo much better to be a little older. Like 18 or 21. That's when the fun starts! Maybe earlier than that because, even though I wont be an adult, I'll be in college at 16 and I can go to college parties and stuff so that'll be awesome!

GracieGirl wrote:
Time's going by pretty slow dude. (sigh)
That is a mind trick.There is a reason for that. As u get older, time will feel like it goes by faster, and faster. The reason is the ratio between ALL the time that u have experienced and any given unit of time.
As u age, that ratio keeps changing.

For instance:
Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that consciousness begins at birth. When a baby is 2 hours old the fullness of ALL the time that he knows is 2 hours.
Ergo, the next hour will be fully half of all the time that he knows,
but after he is 1OO hours old, an hour is only 1% of all the time
that he has known. A summer vacation that u have from school
( maybe 3 months ? ) in relation to ALL the time that u have
experienced becomes a progressively smaller quantity of time,
RELATIVE to ALL the time that u have experienced,
as u get older, because that period of 3 months remains exactly
the same, but the entirety of your life keeps growing more n more,
so that 3 months becomes a progressively smaller fraction thereof.

Oh! I totally get it! That makes sense. Never thought of it that way. Awesome example! Jeez, when I bet when Im 30 a month'll seem like a week! Haha!

David

Gracie!

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Is dating someone who's a different race okay?

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